Karen and the Generational Divide

[LucilleBluth]

My very good friend kept sending me TikTok videos via whatsapp and told me to get on it. I resisted but last week I decided to have a look what it was all about.

Now I’m 40, friend is 42, both white and degree educated with teenagers and primary aged DCs. It would seem that according to this app that middle aged white women are the actual devil. I’m from a working class background and friend is MC.

I’ve never seen younger people be so vitriolic against people they don’t know. It’s definitely misogyny and ageism but dressed up as being woke???

I can’t quite figure out why or where it’s coming from. Any sociological explanation for this?

Wouldn't eg aggressive racist woman/ violent racist man be easier? More descriptive?

And how does it fit in with the complaining in a shop stuff?

And why is Jackie weaver a Karen (Rhetorical question!)

@VladmirsPoutine

See, I didnt think it was the same here, but shortly after the Central Park video I was talking to a (black, female) friend and it turns out (some) white women being bitches to black women and then turning on the tears is a thing here too.

This is such a huge phenomenon. I can't think of a single Black woman I know that hasn't encountered this. And the beauty of it is because they don't use 'racist' language so they often get away with it. And when called out on it start crying thus rendering the Black woman 'aggressive'. It's exhausting to say the least.

Yes, but no-one is talking about that anymore. Because the Very Important People (white men on the internet) have hijacked the conversation and are concentrating on the women that piss THEM of. In the meantime of course it means no-one else has to worry about examining their own internal biases, because they are not the racist ones - it is middle aged women. So nothing fucking changes. And black men will continue to get shot by police and every so often there will be outrage about this. But nothing will fucking change. Because people think they are solving the problem by calling the woman who asked them to put their dog on a leash a Karen. Even though everyone involved in the exchange was white.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Just google and you will find so many memes calling men out.

I'm in no way defending men. Yea they are a massive problem and that needs to be spoken about and addressed but that doesn't give women a free pass to act awfully and get away with it.

It's like if you catch a girl stealing and then she says well all my male friends did it too. You wouldn't just say oh okay then that's fine. You still need to address that bad behaviour. The boys doing the stealing also ofc need to be addressed but that's a separate conversation.

I personally don't think memes that make jokes about women being Karen's are demonising all women. It's calling out specific behaviour that is not acceptable.

@teachermummy1

Realistically I don't think at 40 you will understand. It is terminology that comes from young people, and is used by females and males. A Karen is (usually) a middle class white women who acts entitled and specifically 'asks to see the manager', shouts at service people, complains for no actual reason e.g. screaming. Unfortunately it is centered around the middle class white woman because they are the main perpetrators. My daughter uses the word. It is not misogynistic, and realistically if you begin to call it ageist and misogynistic you're acting slightly like a Karen. As a poster stated it's no different to boomers calling millennials 'snowflakes'.

Genuinely curious ... are you named Karen? If not would you be ok if your or your daughters names were used in this way?

It's more personal than snowflake.

@augustusglupe

I'm 56 and you've just said what I've felt very uncomfortable with for ages. Yes, they're a nasty bunch. The hashtag 'Be kind' brigade are actually more judgmental and small minded than any generation I've known.

And it will continue as long as there are people who actually care what these idiots think. Start to laugh at them, mock them, be passively aggressive towards them, they'll hate it. I've said this before and been sent to the naughty step by the disciples but every movement from feminism in the 60s and 70s has been taken over by the extremists and their genuine and justified concerns have been demeaned giving their critics ammunition with which to attack.

Karen is an angry entitled white middle class and usually above a certain age (I’ve seen younger woman being called a Karen but it’s usually Boomers or older gen X) woman.
See Gammon for the male equivalent.

It’s def not an age thing, not all white mc older women are Karens.

Yes, but no-one is talking about that anymore. Because the Very Important People (white men on the internet) have hijacked the conversation and are concentrating on the women that piss THEM of. In the meantime of course it means no-one else has to worry about examining their own internal biases, because they are not the racist ones - it is middle aged women. So nothing fucking changes. And black men will continue to get shot by police and every so often there will be outrage about this. But nothing will fucking change. Because people think they are solving the problem by calling the woman who asked them to put their dog on a leash a Karen. Even though everyone involved in the exchange was white.

This

What discussion behaviour?

Calling police on a black man in the USA knowing that it could well get him shot and against the cultural and historical backdrop of a woman making that call?

Asking for a refund in a shop?

Trying to chair a parish council meeting when the men are all being arseholes?

Etc etc

My daughter uses the word. It is not misogynistic, and realistically if you begin to call it ageist and misogynistic you're acting slightly like a Karen.
As a poster stated it's no different to boomers calling millennials 'snowflakes'

Where to start with this.
Boomers/millennials/snowflakes/Karen. All used as dismissive stereotypes. Lazy, thought terminating cliches.
Push back against this? Burn the witch.

Try and search out things that you do like and the algorithm will reward you - my FYP is full of beautiful music, parenting humour, anti-Trump comedy and 90s nostalgia.

@Mamapep

Karen is an angry entitled white middle class and usually above a certain age (I’ve seen younger woman being called a Karen but it’s usually Boomers or older gen X) woman. See Gammon for the male equivalent.

It’s def not an age thing, not all white mc older women are Karens.

Karen in the uk is not a middle class name And I don’t know anyone male or female called gammon.

@teachermummy1

Realistically I don't think at 40 you will understand. It is terminology that comes from young people, and is used by females and males. A Karen is (usually) a middle class white women who acts entitled and specifically 'asks to see the manager', shouts at service people, complains for no actual reason e.g. screaming. Unfortunately it is centered around the middle class white woman because they are the main perpetrators. My daughter uses the word. It is not misogynistic, and realistically if you begin to call it ageist and misogynistic you're acting slightly like a Karen. As a poster stated it's no different to boomers calling millennials 'snowflakes'.

Ah, beautiful. So:

(1) if you're not on board with the Karen meme, you're probably too old to understand it, and
(2) if you're not happy with sexist, ageist labels being slung at women, then you deserve the label in the first place?

'
It’s def not an age thing, not all white mc older women are Karens.'

No and Karen here is not a middle class name.

It doesn't translate and now just means 'middle aged woman who should be not heard and probably not seen either' and has been labelled at black women :/

Also on the note that white women are having memes made of them but police shooting down black people arent. Because it's a joke. People are making these 'Karen's' into jokes because they're behaviour is so ridiculous.

People aren't making memes about black people being murdered by white police officers because it isn't funny. It's horrifying and that's why there are marches and protests for this issue.

They are vastly different issues and therefore are responded to differently.

There was a discussion on here a short while ago about the name Karen being used as an insult. I think it's ageist and sexist because it's about stopping women of a certain age having an opinion.

But apparently white women of a certain age have to suck it up because it's nowhere near as bad as black women have to put up with. Lowest common denominator and all that.

Can I just ask? For all the people who know they are not Karens but are offended by the term or when people call them that, why do you take notice? Genuinely like if you know you’re not entitled, racist or unfairly demanding why not just understand you’re clearly not & the person is using it in the wrong context

It's calling out specific behaviour that is not acceptable.

Is there a guide to whats acceptable though? stealing, we know that's not acceptable. Racism is not acceptable. But it's stupid to ignore the fact we live in world where women just existing is unacceptable to some.

@2Olives1Onion in fairness there are alot of memes that take the piss out of the type of man who runs around shouting "Karen" from that younger bunch as well. The ones who are serious in their anti-Karen crusade tend to be a bit older. The younger ones are making things like this:

People are making these 'Karen's' into jokes because their behaviour is so ridiculous

Women over 45 having an opinion is not ridiculous. OK you might get the odd woman who screams in a supermarket, but that is not being a Karen, it's being an idiot.

But it's stupid to ignore the fact we live in world where women just existing is unacceptable to some Indeed.

I’ve not seen anything like that on TikTok is mostly just people having a joke mainly about themselves it’s not serious it’s just fun . If you can’t see the fun side I suggest you go off it and stay on mumsnet.

@poppycat10
I have never once said a woman (of any age) having an opinion is ridiculous

Karen is someone who is harassing people, screaming at people for no reason, calling the police on innocent people etc. It isn't a middle aged woman stating an opinion.

For all the people who know they are not Karens but are offended by the term or when people call them that, why do you take notice? Genuinely like if you know you’re not entitled, racist or unfairly demanding why not just understand you’re clearly not & the person is using it in the wrong context

I'm a millennial but I'm not quite sure what comes under entitled or unfairly demanding behaviour. I want to get paid the same as my male counterparts & I would like more women on the board. I think I'm just as good as my male counterparts & have asked for pay rises in the past. Does that mean Im demanding & entitled? Some would say yes.

[quote Chocolatechocolatechoate]@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Just google and you will find so many memes calling men out.

I'm in no way defending men. Yea they are a massive problem and that needs to be spoken about and addressed but that doesn't give women a free pass to act awfully and get away with it.

It's like if you catch a girl stealing and then she says well all my male friends did it too. You wouldn't just say oh okay then that's fine. You still need to address that bad behaviour. The boys doing the stealing also ofc need to be addressed but that's a separate conversation.

I personally don't think memes that make jokes about women being Karen's are demonising all women. It's calling out specific behaviour that is not acceptable.[/quote]
So you can't provide any evidence for your claim that there are equivalent memes about men? You made the claim, you back it up. But you can't, as I suspect you know perfectly well.

Of course there are memes about men. But there is no equivalent of Karen.

You are also intentionally missing the point about men vs women. It's not a question of saying women never do anything wrong. But, in your stealing example, if 90% of thefts were by men, would you expect social shaming of thieves to focus on women?

Defending ‘Karen’ is a lot like how people used to defend using ‘gay’ as an insult. If you ask why the label is what it is then it quickly looks sexist and ageist / homophobic. Because it is.

Find another label for domineering and aggressive customers if that’s what you’re really trying to do.