Karen and the Generational Divide

[LucilleBluth]

My very good friend kept sending me TikTok videos via whatsapp and told me to get on it. I resisted but last week I decided to have a look what it was all about.

Now I’m 40, friend is 42, both white and degree educated with teenagers and primary aged DCs. It would seem that according to this app that middle aged white women are the actual devil. I’m from a working class background and friend is MC.

I’ve never seen younger people be so vitriolic against people they don’t know. It’s definitely misogyny and ageism but dressed up as being woke???

I can’t quite figure out why or where it’s coming from. Any sociological explanation for this?

@Chocolatechocolatechoate

I know I'm gonna be shot down here but oh well. I really don't see a problem and I think a lot of people on here love to play the victim. Karen isn't an insult for EVERY middle aged woman. It's an insult given to a woman that displays very specific horrible behaviour. Like if you've received bad service and want to make a complaint that doesn't make you a Karen. But if your harassing people or going of for no reason then yeah you're a Karen and you deserve to be called out for that behaviour If you don't act like a dick then you won't be called a Karen and you'll have no problem it's very simple

Let's just review what acceptable behaviours are for men and women.

Where are the memes shaming men for asserting their rights or even 'acting like a dick'?

Where are the memes condemning men for acting aggressively?

You are very naive if you don't see the Karen meme for what it is - a way of keeping all women in check. It's telling us have a choice: meekly shut up or be labelled a Karen.

@nicegerbil it isn't about wanting a refund, 'Karen' often refers to someone who calls the police on black people because they seem scary, videos showing a white middle aged woman treating black people like criminals or calling the police on them were some of the first things that brought this Karen term about

I am a middle-aged woman but I don't agree that using the term Karen is misogynist. Anyone who has worked in a shop, for example, will have met that type of person. They aren't always women but a lot of them are and a lot of them are middle-aged. You don't need to be rude in order to stand up for yourself but some people are.

The suggestion by S Khan's adviser recently that white people are too certain was an interesting one. Usually when you are young you are a bit shy and not very good at complaining if you are sold damaged goods so your mother will do it for you. If that is a defect of white people or older people or women that is ridiculous. May be those who have no confidence to complain need to learn how to do so and should be praising the Karens and learning from them so they gain the skills a Karen has.

It is just like the 1500s and 1600s - older women particularly those who lived alone and have confidence to do that are always looked down on - or told they are witches to be burnt at the stake or the modern equivalent. Nothing much changes.

However for women with confidence to ensure things are done properly they should not fear that although whoever you are and whatever your age complain politely - shouting at people is never a good idea.

The whole woke culture just now really worries and makes me angry.

To be woke means to have an awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice. Why does that worry and make you angry @dazzlinghaze? Seems a very odd thing to get worked up about.

This is an example of the many karen memes used on social media. This one was posted in a cat group I am a member of as for some strange reason the poster thought it was funny.
Can someone explain to me how this calls out a certain type of entitled behaviour? As I just don’t see it.

Photo

I don't really get the "Karen as a slur is okay because it refers to a specific sort of woman who is engaging in a specific type of behaviour". That is not how the term is being used.

An older woman in my locality was politely trying to highlight the problem of quad bikes tearing up the park and she was met with several men ganging up with variations of "Shut the fuck up Karen" against her and any women who tried to support her. Why would anyone want to defend that?

@apalledandshocked agree. It's a conversation that we need to have but now I only hear it from middle class men sharing videos of women in leisure wear making phone calls and yelling about how terrible said women are.

I think the entire sm shaming thing is pretty nasty and pointless a lot of the time anyway and it definitely is wrt this interplay.

I think the Karen thing has gone full circle like the OK Boomer. First it was a certain type of woman, then it was just used to insult any older woman with an opinion. Then the young people started calling each other it. Then people starting pointing out it was misogynistic. Now I don't see it much at all. These things lose their potency after a while and the kidz come up with some new stuff.

@VladmirsPoutine I explained in the rest of my post why it worries me! Which you know full well seeing as you were able to cherry pick that one line from it!

Being aware of and fighting injustice is great. Black and white thinking and surrounding yourself with only people who think the exact same as you on every issue is dangerous. That is what I mean. And again, I'm sure you already know exactly what I meant but it's more fun to deliberately pick out one line and misconstrue it, isn't it?

It reminds me of the awful mother-in-law jokes in the 1970s. I remember my mother complaining about those, and how you didn't get FIL jokes.

@NuniaBeeswax

"When did the young become like this."

"“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

― Socrates"

Oh god, that's such a tired cliché when anyone expresses concern about any youth-driven trend.

The point is that this is artificially manufactured inter-generational conflict, which is harmful to the whole of society. Boomer is just as bad (and I say that as a Gen X-er). Older people should not dismiss young people's views just because they are young, or vice versa. Social media is increasingly segmenting us into tribes for the convenience of people trying to sell us things, but it is harmful if we create identities based on negative stereotypes about others.

@WinterIsGone

It reminds me of the awful mother-in-law jokes in the 1970s. I remember my mother complaining about those, and how you didn't get FIL jokes.

You also get many more horrid MIL than FIL threads here I think ?

We are in the UK and the women who have the name Karen here is not for example generally a well off woman.

I also think the cultural context is different around racism and the police and so on. We have a different history. Yes black people experience racism and the met at least are pretty good at killing black men and then getting away with it, even without guns. However I don't think there's history of white middle class women calling the police on black men over and above other white people. And certainly not with the intention of having them shot on the spot.

It's a thing that does not translate well to the UK when Karen is not a posh name and the police here are arseholes to loads of groups of people.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

There are tons and tons of memes calling men out on their nonsense.

I'm so tired of this excuse on mumsnet that women can never be held accountable for their actions because men are so much worse.

Yes men probably are worse but that's a separate issue, we're talking about women and the names used to describe them right now. Saying "oh but men do this.." isn't a defence for women acting ina way that is not acceptable.

How many men are expected to interact with their in laws as much as many women are?

How many women hand over dealing with their own parents to their husbands?

It's an entirely different dynamic.

Men are probably worse?

You don't say.

My group is more important or more victimised than yours.
My experience of the way words are used is more valid than yours.
These are the themes that seem to be endlessly circulating around social media.
Everything about the debates pushes us down an ever more divisive road.
Wouldn't it be great if people engaged without dismissing the points that someone else made.

It’s not about asking to see the manager. It’s about some people who ask to see the manager and scream at them, rather than have a constructive conversation

This is just not true. There have been threads on here from women with very legitimate issues, such as noisy neighbours, who don't want to talk to the neighbours for fear of being called 'Karen'

It works to make ANY women feel as if she will be perceived as a 'screaming at the manager women' when what she actually has is a legitimate complaint. It means the person she is complaining too feels emboldened to label her as a Karen instead of addressing their own behaviour.

Its extremely toxic. If you are a woman.

@NiceGerbil re Jackie Weaver I saw a particularly witless tweet (by a (white) male university lecturer ffs) about how she had exercised her white female privilege in that footage. The footage of those men talking over her and yelling at her, that we all saw.

@Sweet666

I feel like women called Shaniqua and Shanaynay and Latisha have suffered way worse than women called Karen.. that's more offensive and has been around for longer

Absolutely yes! That is much worse, both because it managed to combine racism AND misogyny and because I think the stereotype was even nastier. The Latisha I knew basically went by the name of Tish because of the negative connotations which is really wrong. However, two wrongs dont make a right.

@GCAcademic

It's funny how modern "activism" is all based around hating specific groups of people isn't it? What a progressive culture we inhabit. I say "activism" but what it unusually entails is sitting on your arse, insulting people on social media, and then patting yourself on the back for being "progressive".

100% nailed it. Exactly what it is.

Wokeness now just means if you don’t agree with me I am going to insult you on social media
The case of Calvin Robinson being called a house negro because of his conservative views by the someone from the race trust.
Seems like just because he is black he is only allowed to think one way.

@WinterIsGone

It reminds me of the awful mother-in-law jokes in the 1970s. I remember my mother complaining about those, and how you didn't get FIL jokes.

And the awful wife jokes! As well as the dreadful racism. You cannot listen to 70s comedians, it will make you want to chew your own arm off with disgust. I cannot believe that was deemed acceptable. I can't stand the Carry On films either because I find them so, so awful but I'm probably in a minority there.