Karen and the Generational Divide

[LucilleBluth]

My very good friend kept sending me TikTok videos via whatsapp and told me to get on it. I resisted but last week I decided to have a look what it was all about.

Now I’m 40, friend is 42, both white and degree educated with teenagers and primary aged DCs. It would seem that according to this app that middle aged white women are the actual devil. I’m from a working class background and friend is MC.

I’ve never seen younger people be so vitriolic against people they don’t know. It’s definitely misogyny and ageism but dressed up as being woke???

I can’t quite figure out why or where it’s coming from. Any sociological explanation for this?

I worked with someone who used to say 'That's so white!' 'That's such a white thing to do!'

Really?

@Cadent

I worked with someone who used to say 'That's so white!' 'That's such a white thing to do!'

Really?

Yes, he was Malaysian.

I’ve got a really good friend called Karen.

I hate this term

@VladmirsPoutine

If the shoe doesn't fit then don't wear it. Karens are very specific types of women. They frankly are a lot more dangerous than the out and out neo nazis.

Yes but some people dont have the choice to wear the shoe or not because that is their name. Additionally, I have seen Jakie Weaver (for example) being described as "the ultimate Karen", "the queen of Karen's". The reasons she came to public attention had nothing to do with racism, or even behaving in an unreasonable manner. The use of the word has changed a lot. I also agree that the type of woman you are thinking of can be very dangerous. However, I also think that assiging (or allowing other people to assign) all the ills of racism to a particular subset of person/characature is dangerous too. It allows everyone else to say "Thats not ME" and blocks real change.

In the twinkling of an eye all these angry wokeist millenials (or whoever it is) will be exhausted, harrassed middle aged with no time to rant against anyone.
There are idiots all ages (I know, as a regular reader of the Times comments).

Actually I worked in service jobs for YEARS - waitressing, hotel, shop, reception. I would say older women 100% the easiest customers? Leave their room clean, leave their table clean, straightforward and unassuming. Young people - messy in groups, don’t spend a lot of money. Older men - demanding, often grumpy and yes messier than older women.

Even in corporate career that followed, yes I can think of some feisty older women (i mean by feisty I mean north of 40), but the really toxic meetings and phone calls where I would be berated for 45 mins at a time or plagued by reams of bitchy nitpicking emails, were all with/by/from older men.

Working, solvent, well educated older women are the most powerful they’ve ever been in history. I don’t think that it’s surprising there’s a kickback.

I do think there are going to be young women who in turn commit the heinous crime of getting older who are going to have an ‘ohhhhhhhh... now I see’ moment. Or maybe not. Maybe they will just hate themselves!

Isn't the stereotypical "Karen" a racist white woman who feels entitled and belittles others. It doesn't have anything bro do with age.
I think it also stemmed from a retail point of view. Not sure how it relates to people being "woke" either. Which I think the.mewning of has been diluted.

Men shouldn’t get away with it either but are they not just made fun of for being miserable, boring out-of-touch old twats with tiny dicks? I know that’s how I see them & I know that’s ‘not all men’, just like when I see a woman acting like a Karen I don’t then assume all women are like that. Someone said it perfectly, don’t claim the shoe if it doesn’t fit. I don’t know why you’d think you’re a Karen if you know you don’t behave like any of the characteristics mentioned by multiple people in this thread already

Aren’t they? Typically I see Karen and Ken being criticised on the videos where men are featured too.

I think it’s because we get called “Karen” just for doing perfectly normal things that other groups (men/young people) do without comment from anyone! Mildly wondering where item you’ve paid for is - if done by 40 plus woman is being a “Karen” if done by anyone else it’s wondering where your stuff is. That’s why. We are not stupid!

@PinkyParrot

In the twinkling of an eye all these angry wokeist millenials (or whoever it is) will be exhausted, harrassed middle aged with no time to rant against anyone. There are idiots all ages (I know, as a regular reader of the Times comments).

To be honest millenials are the ones heading into middle age now. It is generation Z that are the young ones (sobs). When I see people my own age (mid thirties) using those terms it feels a bit cringe because its like an older person hanging out trying to use "with it" terms to fit in with the young folks/prove they are still young.* People in their late teens/early twenties - I think I was a twat at 21 so meh.

*Also when its a 35+ bloke to be honest I think what are you doing on Tik-Tok watching videos of teenagers anyway? Which is itself probably hugely sexist and judgemental of me.

@apalledandshocked yes and we're certainly hearing plenty about that particular dynamic rn.

We're hearing rather less about the male misuse of actual power though. There's a lot of talk of weaponised tears, not so much about weapons.

I don't agree with this or maybe I've been away from sm too long to see where it has been led to and taken out of its original context. When the Karen meme came up first time, I was a student working in retail and once in a while I was confronted by a customer or two who actually believe it or not, fitted with their attitude of self entitlement and quoting "customers are always right". Yes you or your child are free to break things and ask for a refund. Use items and demand a refund from me and ask to speak to my manager when I refuse to refund you because I find that you have worn the shoes outside and have smoked in your top where I can smell it and claim you have never worn this and shout at me saying customers are always right and quote me the consumers act. The meme itself wasn't targeted at Middle Aged women. It was used to describe behaviour of self entitled cf customers who threatened that they will get you fired which till this day you will see it from all types of people regardless of age and sex. You can be from any generation or sex and still be a horrible person or a simple curtain twitcher calling the police on you or a neighbour who puts cones out in front of their house on a residential road with no allocated parking space because they think they own it. I'm sorry the name "Karen" has been used to describe such vile behaviour from all generations and sex but now I use "CF" since joining mumsnet to describe these individuals.

I read that women called Karen been attacked on social media etc. because of their name. I'm sure I read that some had changed their name at work if they were in sales etc (USA) because of the reaction.

So that's not really the same as Snowflake or boomer.

Using an actual name is really not good.

Also when I worked in retail the men were by far the worst for complaining aggressively.

@poppyzbrite4 It's not that uncommon for some POC to say things like that; attribute certain types of behaviours to 'whiteness'.

@Lalalockdown agree with you. I was a barmaid for years. In that time I encountered lots of arsehole customers including violent arsehole customers. None of them were middle aged women.

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@poppyzbrite4 It's not that uncommon for some POC to say things like that; attribute certain types of behaviours to 'whiteness'.[/quote]
I'm aware of that, thank you.

The Karen I got held up by in an armed robbery at work was a chap I'm pretty sure

[quote JaywickCaravanOfLust]@apalledandshocked yes and we're certainly hearing plenty about that particular dynamic rn.

We're hearing rather less about the male misuse of actual power though. There's a lot of talk of weaponised tears, not so much about weapons.[/quote]
Yes, that is what is most disappointing. It looked like there really was, for a brief moment, a genuine dialogue opening up about institutional racism, about how racism permeated all levels of society and about abuses of power. I know many black people had been trying to talk about this for a long time but they tended to get shouted down o just ignored. Then, just when it looked like there was much greater awareness (and attention) starting to open up, it became about "Karens" versus "the woke" and everything else is business as usual. I think this state of affairs really suits some people and thats why it has happened.

Also when I worked in retail the men were by far the worst for complaining aggressively.

Same. It was always men who I saw shoplifting...

Nothing wrong with calling out entitled behaviour the problem is who defines what that is.

I feel like women called Shaniqua and Shanaynay and Latisha have suffered way worse than women called Karen.. that's more offensive and has been around for longer

I'm a millenial who is normally dressed in grubby tracksuits or dungarees in clashing colours (I am faaaar from fitting the 'Karen' trope). I've never made a formal complaint - I am lazy and don't care enough. Still been called 'Karen', only in the context of talking about women's rights...

It may or may not have started as something more specific. Certainly the times it's been said to me though, it's just lazy misogyny cloaked under a poor attempt at humour.

I'm 26 so not quite Karen age (although I have seen on tiktok that I'm old and past it because of my side shed and skinny jeans?!!!). I completely agree that it is so clearly rooted in misogyny and so many people that use the term are totally gleeful about being able to abuse and ridicule women over a certain age and be applauded for it. They love being able to basically say "Not only are you a woman but you're a woman who is too old to be fuckable and you've got the cheek to think you have the right to self confidence and to make yourself heard - you need to shut up and be invisible".

The whole woke culture just now really worries and makes me angry. A whole generation of children who are learning that their opinions are the only ones that matter and that anyone who doesn't completely agree with them is evil, racist, transphobic, homophobic, whatever the offence of the day is, and not worthy of a voice is really scary. I know young people always have strong beliefs but now they're able to create an echo chamber via social media which makes it seem that everyone feels the same as them. Then it's easy for them to brush off the adults in their lives who voice different opinions as a minority of bigots. All humans need to be exposed to a wide range of people and views to learn and grow.

I don't know if it's because I'm more left leaning so this is what I see most, but so much of the left wing ideology that is popular right now seems to be being used as a veil for misogyny. It seems every group deserves respect except women. And yes there are some middle aged women who can be very rude but my experience of working in retail showed me that there are arseholes of all sexes, races and ages. But it wouldn't be very woke to make memes about the other groups, would it?

It reminds me of how people used to call people "chavs" and then say "oh I'm not being classist! Anyone can behave like a chav, even the landed gentry!" when in reality, the term was not really used or understood in this way.

White middle aged women who want a refund in a shop, or as PP mentioned Jackie weaver are worse than neo Nazis?

Lol