Karen and the Generational Divide

[LucilleBluth]

My very good friend kept sending me TikTok videos via whatsapp and told me to get on it. I resisted but last week I decided to have a look what it was all about.

Now I’m 40, friend is 42, both white and degree educated with teenagers and primary aged DCs. It would seem that according to this app that middle aged white women are the actual devil. I’m from a working class background and friend is MC.

I’ve never seen younger people be so vitriolic against people they don’t know. It’s definitely misogyny and ageism but dressed up as being woke???

I can’t quite figure out why or where it’s coming from. Any sociological explanation for this?

Heard on the radio recently that Older women who sold beer often used cauldrons and wore black pointed hats and often had cats. As beer selling became a lucrative trade men wanted to boot them out and take it over so began spreading rumours about “witches” as Xenia sets out - hence the witch identifiers we still have today...

Cats would keep the rats down - the ones that ate the malt............ seems feasible....

Just another way to shut women up.

People who call others a ‘Karen’ tend to be those who haven’t got a clue how to have a reasoned discussion. They basically don’t like anyone who dares to disagree with them.

@BigPaperBag

Have you been on YouTube? It's full of videos of black people experiencing racism and calling out the perpetrator as Karen or Ken. It does seem to shut the aggressor up.

I never use the Karen term myself but I'm not going to get annoyed by people using it to challenge racists.

Although interestingly none of the memes posted here are doing that.

Because the choosing of obscure memes here is subjective. I can post links to loads of YT videos if helpful. Some of the examples are toe-curling.

You are more than welcome to trawl the memes through the years like a dedicated poster did earlier in the discussion.

I'd also suggest any examples are used are UK based, as we can't export us problems directly to the UK, as has been seen with the service industry comment previously.

They're really not obscure.

But Karen has been hijacked by many to use it to put women in their place. And the association has the added unpleasant connotation of "therefore you're probably racist too". That's why it's casual use isn't ok.

Still waiting or someone to remind me of the catchy, everyday name we use to refer to the type of man who abuses women and girls ... is there a meme for him?

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz I hear Ken as the male equivalent a lot. Maybe Karen is used more often because the behaviour of calling the police, crying and pretending a black person is attacking/stalking you (whilst the video shows the reality rather than fantasy) is more often displayed by women? It's particular kind of privilege and it's been around for a long time (see To Kill a Mocking Bird).

There's a massive generational divide and both sides are behaving poorly. The difference is, one side are adults, and the other teenagers, I'd expect the adults to be setting a better example. Older people have always treated teenagers, in particular, poorly, and now the teenagers are retaliating. I was a teenager not a massive time ago and honestly was treated appallingly by random middle and old age people, as though how dare I even exist. It builds resentment.
Teenagers are angry at the older generations for lots of reason, some valid, some perhaps not so, obviously that's worse now. Teenagers are being dragged into a world on its knees, and it's not their fault, but they're going to have to fix it.

Indeed. Teenage is relatively new a concept as children used to start work around 13 and not have much of a teenage years.
Tehre are lots of different issues. My views are:-

1. Try not to use words that upset other people as you should try to be kind to everyone so I would never use words like chav or Karen or boomer or tell someone they are woke.

1. The US and UK do not have the same history in relation to race issues so some of the attempts to export the US history to the Uk end up sounding ludicrous although no one disputes that in the Uk there is both sex, age and race discrimination of course.

1. US and UK laws on recording people are not the same and the UK and Eu have slightly more complex laws on this so again what can be done in the USA cannot necessarily be done here.

I always think Shakespeare had the age divide right in 1599 here:
Crabbed Age and Youth
Cannot live together:
Youth is full of pleasance,
Age is full of care;
Youth like summer morn,
Age like winter weather;
Youth like summer brave,
Age like winter bare:
Youth is full of sports,
Age's breath is short,
Youth is nimble, Age is lame:
Youth is hot and bold,
Age is weak and cold,
Youth is wild, and Age is tame:-
Age, I do abhor thee;
Youth, I do adore thee;
O! my Love, my Love is young!
Age, I do defy thee-
O sweet shepherd, hie thee,
For methinks thou stay'st too long.

Tbh I agree with the term Karen. Yes it's unfortunate that it's someones name. But it's a description of a certain type of person, it came about by people complaining about white, middle class women, who treat people like shit, and think that by kicking off and creating a scene they can get something better, better treatment, a discount, force someone to accept a return that isn't valid, by berating and being horrible to someone who they see as lesser than them because they work in customer service. In descriptions of these people we assign a name that fits in our mind, for this group of people most people used Karen, we use Chase and Troy or upper class young boys who are arrogant little shits, Barbara for older women, Dave for middle aged men. Think how often on here people will be talking about a posh mum and slagging her off while referring to her kids as Taraquin and Jezebelle or whatever. You assign names to people who you don't know by their behaviour. Karen took hold because it fits as the name for this type of person in most peoples minds. And it gives people power to bring attention to these peoples behaviour and challenge them on it.

'Teenagers are being dragged into a world on its knees, and it's not their fault, but they're going to have to fix it.'

Teens are just people. Good, bad and grey and certainly not saints.

I'd like to see teens practice what they preach, then they'd get my respect.

For example, a well known early 30s environmental and vegan campaigner was at extinction rebellion and very politely asking teens if they'd reduce meat for the planet, which they obviously cared about.

The response was said teens being rude and ridiculing him, saying Nandos rules etc.

That's a sneering ageist attitude common amongst teens.
So no, they don't get a free virtue signalling pass. And the implication that those over twenty aren't doing their bit is frankly insulting.
More strides for equality etc have been made in the past 70 years. The current trend seems to curtail women's gains in particular because, you know, be kind.

Not buying it. People are people. Good, bad, ugly and that transcends generations.

Does Dave have negative connotations or is it just age relaed?

The woman who have done that deserve condemnation of course they do.

If I decided to complain about shit service, about government policy which will affect me or call a man out on bad behaviour I will be called a Karen with all the associations attached you described. This is not ok.

And let's not forget that many armed policemen in the US manage all by themselves to shoot black people. And even when those women are involved whose pulled the trigger? That's the real problem.

Actually it wasn't an equivalent to Karen I was pondering as generally, women aren't often responsible for the abuse and murder of men quite to the extent that it happens the other way round.

It feels like that problem and perpetrators is just as deserving of a meme as one reserved for women.

I never use the Karen term myself but I'm not going to get annoyed by people using it to challenge racists.

Is there really no better way to challenge racism than resorting to insults rooted in classism and misogyny?

@SinisterBumFacedCat not for me, I've reached the age where I can tell people to fuck off when needed (I was assaulted in Tesco recently and I called the dickhead some choice names, very loudly) , but I have seen videos where people didn't feel they could say fuck off but could say to a racist 'you're being a Karen/Ken'.

The abuse against me was misogynistic.

Older people have always treated teenagers, in particular, poorly, and now the teenagers are retaliating.
This is bizarre. I have a teenager, and I don't see lots of rebelling and retaliating among her and her friends. In fact, older people help with youth club, they are teachers, mentors etc etc.

I do see some old people using the term snowflake, and some young people using the word Karen and boomer. There are alike in my opinion (except Karen is worse, from one point of view, because it's someone's name).

I was wondering how often in the last year I have seen an older woman ranting and swearing. Then I wondered how often in the last 2 years i have seen etc, Then I wondered how often in the last 3 years.

I mean, apart from stuff on fb or wherever I never see older women ranting and swearing at people.
Men swearing and swearing enough and loudly enough to offend others, parents with small dCs, Yes, probably several times a year.

It'a all made up land from sm. Ditto the teens, teens are too busy with their own lives to care what older people are going on about. It's all made up to get clicks.

Just another way to shut women up.

Not just another way to shut women up - but to feel like a social justice warrior while you're doing it. Shut women up and give yourself a pat on the back for doing it. Win-win-win.

@Cadent

The abuse against me was misogynistic.

That's shit Cadent. Sorry that happened to you.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz thank you