We did not end freedom of movement. The only people we ended fom for is ourselves and our children.

[Kendodd]

I don't know why we would celebrate this.
The children of our EU friends living here still have their fom, when they leave school they'll be free to live and work in any one of 31 countries (I'm pleased for them) our children won't be. I've heard 'EU passport holder' is starting to appear on CVs now as it makes people a more attractive employee in certain sectors.

Oh and I grew up in one of the most deprived areas in the country on state benefits attending a failing school. I made use of fom in my youth and it gave me opportunities young people in my situation won't have anymore. It's not just for rich people.

@lifeturnsonadime

Why do you think sovereignty is a negligible benefit?

Imagine you are at home. All of a sudden someone comes and starts to mandate what you must do:

.you would like to study medicine --> NO, you must specialise in law
.you have no spare bedroom --> you must take a lodger that they have selected and he will sleep on the sofa and you must feed him
.you are a vegetarian ---> NO, you must eat meat
.you are short of cash --> you must pay for your neighbour's children's education
.you would like to install security bars on your windows ---> NO, you must leave the front door open

Why do you find this acceptable?

Yes, figures and assessments are very important and will come in due course. It's too soon.

Also the UK is a resourceful and business oriented nation, there's no reason why we shouldn't flourish. I don't know why some focus only on the negatives and the predictions of doom and gloom.

what they don't say but you can read between the lines

I think the problem of doing too much reading between the lines is that you can come to conclusions based on your own preconceptions and bias. We all know this.

[quote turquoisewaters]@lifeturnsonadime

Why do you think sovereignty is a negligible benefit?

Imagine you are at home. All of a sudden someone comes and starts to mandate what you must do:

.you would like to study medicine --> NO, you must specialise in law
.you have no spare bedroom --> you must take a lodger that they have selected and he will sleep on the sofa and you must feed him
.you are a vegetarian ---> NO, you must eat meat
.you are short of cash --> you must pay for your neighbour's children's education
.you would like to install security bars on your windows ---> NO, you must leave the front door open

Why do you find this acceptable?

Yes, figures and assessments are very important and will come in due course. It's too soon.

Also the UK is a resourceful and business oriented nation, there's no reason why we shouldn't flourish. I don't know why some focus only on the negatives and the predictions of doom and gloom.[/quote]
What on earth are you on about , lol!

No wonder you were so keen to see the back of the EU if you thought they had that much control over national decision making!

But you are right the opportunity to remove workers rights that derive from EU Directives and were implemented in UK law via primary legislation through our 2 legislative houses (despite the fact we had the right to veto) will no doubt benefit our resourceful business owners! Who cares that if they do decide to go down that route and exercise 'sovereignty' will make the working man poorer , eh?

https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/brexit-index/

Job losses.

The EU now force vegetarians to eat meat?

Do you have any real examples? Because I really really want to know why sovereignty is worth it.

Oh sovereignty! Like how it was leaked in the Financial Times that the govt were reviewing proposals to end the 48 hour working week and remove overtime pay when calculating holiday pay?

They can do that now because they have sovereignty! I see.... congratulations?

Why do you think sovereignty is a negligible benefit?

Its meaningless, define it and then tell me why we have to go to war if a fellow NATO country is attacked, say Georgia?

Also the UK is a resourceful and business oriented nation, there's no reason why we shouldn't flourish. I don't know why some focus only on the negatives and the predictions of doom and gloom

Lol Yes we certainly were pre EEC/EU weren't we?

The world is even more inter connected and hyper competitive, we are a small country with a much smaller voice in the world now.

Why do you find this acceptable?
Your examples are ridiculous but that aside, as usual you are completely ignoring the fact that WE WERE IN THE EU. So we were the ones deciding what to do as much as anyone else. This idea that "they" dictated what Britain did and we had to submit is completely false but unfortunately believed by a lot of Brexiteers.

a fellow NATO country

The fact that we are part of a military alliance doesn't mean that we should be relinquishing sovereignty at any opportunity as if it didn't matter.

@turquoisewaters

a fellow NATO country

The fact that we are part of a military alliance doesn't mean that we should be relinquishing sovereignty at any opportunity as if it didn't matter.

...but we have, the ability to go to war or not, is perhaps the greatest act of sovereignty you could ever have, we have relinquished that to be part of NATO.

Yet you worry about having to abide by an ECJ ruling on mains voltage.

@turquoisewaters

Also, how do you define 'rich world'? Could China or Russia have been forced by the UN to take refugees?

That’s a good point. Do Russia and China take in refugees? If not, is it because Russia and China won’t have them or the refugees don’t want to go there?

QuentinInQuarantino
Job losses. Do you have any real examples?

Can you verify some of your real examples please - the details are a bit lacking, e.g.

27/08/2019: Fall in foreign direct investment 133,000 job losses.

Details: Other/Unknown

26/01/2018: Jaguar Land Rover 24,800 job losses Automotive Details N/A

06/08/2018 Survey of 200+ travel companies 25,000 job losses - Details NA

20/06/2018 Rolls Royce 4,000 job losses Mfg Aerospace Derby.

Guardian article here (10/06/2018) no mention of Brexit though;

Rolls-Royce is set to announce more than 4,000 job losses this week as the aero-engine maker attempts to increase profits by cutting middle-management posts.

The chief executive, Warren East, has decided to take action after stating repeatedly that the firm has become bloated with unnecessary layers of management and duplicated roles...

he was forced to issue a profit warning [2015] while historical allegations of corruption led to £671m in penalties and the company apologising in court last year...

www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/10/rolls-royce-set-to-announce-more-than-4000-job-cuts

22/02/2018 Sockmonkey Studio 5 job losses ICT Middlesborough

Doesn't tally with this article 04/07/2018;

Games company, SockMonkey Studios, founded by two Teesside graduates, has grown to employ nine people, with plans for further expansion.
www.tees.ac.uk/schools/tubs/news_story.cfm?story_id=6874&this_issue_title=July%202018&this_issue=302

Or this;
Currently employing 18 members of staff, the studio is using the investment to roll out a phased growth plan, creating a dozen new jobs by the end of this year, and almost tripling its staff numbers to 50 by 2021 in order to support growing demand.

bdaily.co.uk/articles/2020/06/15/middlesbrough-games-developer-to-create-dozens-of-jobs-with-250k-investment

lifeturnsonadime
Clavinova. It is clear that people will have lost jobs because of Brexit prior to the end of the transition period. That doesn't make the opposite true, that economic growth must have been because of Brexit. But you know that.

In some areas it did - the fall in the value of the pound after the referendum helped boost tourism and certain exports;

Jan 2017 Fortnum & Mason sales surge as 'Brexit tourists' boost UK stores.

uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/fortnum-mason-sales-surge-brexit-tourists-boost-uk-092400568.html

Oh nine people? How fabulous.

Do you think they'll have room for 140 more?

QuentinInQuarantino
Oh nine people? How fabulous.

It cancels out the first company at the top of your list:
Village Kitchen 8 job losses Food & drink Birmingham.

Why did you include 8 job losses on your list if you don't care about 9 job creations? Number three on your list records 2 job losses:
The Wool Shop 2 job losses Retail Clothing Newport Pagnell

Do you think they'll have room for 140 more?

Only if you deduct another 24,000 job losses from your list here:

City Council projection of job losses in city:
27/08/2019 24000 Other Other Glasgow Scotland.

This figure relates to an estimate circulated at a Glasgow City Council meeting in August 2019 - a forecast of job losses in the event of a 'no-deal' Brexit (which we didn't get) - not verifiable job losses. Why did you include it on your list?

25 Aug 2019;
A paper prepared by city council economists that was circulated to councillors on Friday suggests a massive impact if the UK leaves the EU without an agreement. ...

The research concludes that Glasgow would be about £2.35bn worse off over four years under no-deal compared with current projections. The city would lose 24,000 jobs over two years and miss out on 14,000 new jobs being created.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/leaving-eu-without-a-deal-will-cost-glasgow-2-35bn-wxwn59ltd

The company in Barrow are not blaming Brexit for the factory closure:

McBride has blamed Barrow factory closure on a fall in demand for the laundry powders, with the detergent market shifting toward liquid – forcing the company to examine its manufacturing footprint and ‘realign this in order to remain competitive’.

So Clarinova, you can find a few small examples of the 'weak pound' (not so sure that's something to be grateful for when we import so much) post the brexit vote increasing sales in luxury items, but note even in that article for balance it was noted that other companies were reporting lower profit margins. That's great. As I said before it's a bloody good job some businesses are thriving.

I'm not sure those small examples give me great hope.

But what say you to the fact that Mr Johnson is declining to do an impact assessment when they are normally carried out after a new trade arrangement? If the impact assessment would prove Brexit to be a resounding success surely it would be the very thing he would want to do to 're-unite the UK' and to try to reassure the leave voters that there are clear benefits to make up for the very real loss of movement that has been suffered?

But what say you to the fact that Mr Johnson is declining to do an impact assessment when they are normally carried out after a new trade arrangement

As I've said, it's too soon, plus Covid would skew any conclusions.

try to reassure the leave voters that there are clear benefits

Leave voters don't need any reassurance. They are firmly convinced that it was the right choice.

And all those stories about Leave voters repenting are not credible (I don't believe them for one minute myself)

But turquoise it is normal to do an impact assessment. It's nothing to do with making leave voters (or remain for that matter) happy. It's just what is done. Except for this change in trade arrangements. Why?

And the covid excuse again. That really doesn't hold much weight when NHS (who are presumably most impacted by the pandemic) are prioritising guidance on preferred pronouns.

All excuses.

As for leave voters repenting, I've not heard much of that. More doubling down and blaming Europe for putting restrictions on us when we have made the decision to become a third country.

But what say you to the fact that Mr Johnson is declining to do an impact assessment when they are normally carried out after a new trade arrangement

As I've said, it's too soon, plus Covid would skew any conclusions.

Bollocks.

The UK Government published the impact assessment on the UK-Japan trade agreement in October last year, several weeks before it came into force.

The purpose of the impact assessment is to provide parliament and the public with information on the potential economic impacts of the agreement.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-japan-cepa-final-impact-assessment

So Parliament and the public are allowed to see the Government’s assessment on a deal that accounts for 2% of UK exports but not for the deal that accounts for 47% of exports?

Either they have no clue or it’s such a fucking disaster that they don’t want us to know.

They are firmly convinced that it was the right choice.
You've got that right, theres absolutely nothing that would shake their belief. I would bet money that the fishermen facing bankruptcy would still vote Leave, wholeheartedly believing this would benefit them, if they could vote again. I'm sure the DUP would vote and campaign for Leave again if they had the chance despite all the evidence that Brexit has been the greatest driver towards a united Ireland in 100 years. That idiot eel farmer, absolutely no doubt he would vote Leave again and then be completely bewildered why his business had failed off a cliff (again). If I've learnt one thing in the last four years it's that Leave voters are absolutely welded to their vote, even when that vote directly harms them and their families, they just blame the EU for all their problems.

And all those stories about Leave voters repenting are not credible (I don't believe them for one minute myself)
Completely agree. They don't regret a thing.
They watched the birth of the New IRA and the killing of Lyra Mckee and the instability Brexit has caused in Ireland then voted to 'get Brexit done'. Brexit would have been stopped if Leave voters had changed their minds, they didn't.

More doubling down and blaming Europe for putting restrictions on us

That's not plausible either. Mere fabrications.

It's ridiculous that someone could expect that after leaving the EU there wouldn't be restrictions.

directly harms them and their families

Believe it or not, some give precedence to the national perspective rather than how a decision may impact them and their families individually

@turquoisewaters

More doubling down and blaming Europe for putting restrictions on us

That's not plausible either. Mere fabrications.

It's ridiculous that someone could expect that after leaving the EU there wouldn't be restrictions.

Go over to any motorhoming forum. Motorhome Fun, any facebook page for motorhomers for example.

Loads of leave voter motorhomers blaming individual EU countries for failing to allow them to continue travelling at their leisure.

I know this because I own a motorhome and am a member of some of these forums. It beggars believe but it is true.

Believe it or not, some give precedence to the national perspective rather than how a decision may impact them and their families individually

This is so funny.

What “national perspective” did you apply to Northern Ireland when you voted Leave?