We did not end freedom of movement. The only people we ended fom for is ourselves and our children.

[Kendodd]

I don't know why we would celebrate this.
The children of our EU friends living here still have their fom, when they leave school they'll be free to live and work in any one of 31 countries (I'm pleased for them) our children won't be. I've heard 'EU passport holder' is starting to appear on CVs now as it makes people a more attractive employee in certain sectors.

Oh and I grew up in one of the most deprived areas in the country on state benefits attending a failing school. I made use of fom in my youth and it gave me opportunities young people in my situation won't have anymore. It's not just for rich people.

@Bluepotato

Surely the opportunity to work abroad in Europe will still be available for those who apply for work permits/ visas. I know many who have been on holiday to Europe but in terms of work I know more who move from U.K. to work and study abroad outside of Europe with work permits and visas in places like Canada, Australia and Asia. I would think that there will still be an opportunity to work abroad in Europe with visa.

Yes but the point is employers would rather choose someone who doesn’t need a visa

the point is employers would rather choose someone who doesn’t need a visa

Yep..and that's a fact that already been mentioned upthread by one or two who are in business outside the UK.

I honestly think if it wasn't for the sneers and accusations of racism etc in the lead up to the brexit vote, alot of the floating vote would have swayed towards staying.
I was a floating voter.

I'm sorry but that is the very definition of thick in my book. If you call me names I'll vote in a way that harms us both just to piss you off. I hear it a lot on MN, It's not exactly clever is it?

Oh and most Leave voters I know irl are racists, proper "they should all fuck off home" racists. And they couldn't even distinguish between the 2015 migrant crisis and FoM, it was all the same thing in their head.

While I don’t think all Leave voters are racist all the people I know who are racist (family so can’t completely ditch) did vote leave. I could have told you who I knew who would vote leave long before they actually voted. It doesn’t cover all leave voters but there is a type

@donewithitalltodayandxmas

* I'm guessing you are too young to have seen Auf Wiedersehen Pet.* Yet we didn't have fom then , you can still go and live and work in another eu country it is just harder But if you have a skill they want then it can happen

Auf Wiedersehen, Pet was set in 1983.

So, yes, we did have FoM for workers - that was established in 1968 across the EEC.

I'm getting the feeling the thread has run it's course and as always it's Brexit related and agreement won't be reached.

Talk to anybody who has actually personally been through many of the processes being described as "easy" by some here, such as work visas, gaining residency with right to work attached, or citizenship, and you'll probably find for them it was anything but easy and indeed perhaps now impossible.

There's no way around it - Getting a job in the EU is now objectively more difficult for Brit national vs. the situation a couple of years back, many Brit nationals have become less employable on the European mainland.

Those who voted leave in the referendum have to shoulder some of the responsibility for that, though I accept they may feel it was worth it because they feel they have improved their own employment prospects and the prospects of their family.

@Kendodd

Oh and most Leave voters I know irl are racists, proper "they should all fuck off home" racists. And they couldn't even distinguish between the 2015 migrant crisis and FoM, it was all the same thing in their head.

Maybe you need to reassess your friendship group. Unless you mean you only know three leave voters, two of who are "proper" racists. (Is there an "improper racist" btw? Is that someone who hates all Asians, except for the one she's met?)

So you have two candidates one of whom has the right to work and the other doesn't.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out which one will be selected.

I don't blame anyone for voting leave, that was their choice.

I blame Cameron for asking the wrong question.

I also get incensed by those trying to defend the indefensible and claim this is a good thing.

I think Covid has done Boris Johnson a lot of favours in deflecting from the realities of Brexit.

@Kendodd

Oh and most Leave voters I know irl are racists, proper "they should all fuck off home" racists. And they couldn't even distinguish between the 2015 migrant crisis and FoM, it was all the same thing in their head.

"most Leave voters I know irl are racists" That would be the majority of people in this country then. Someone was saying that people should qualify to vote. With that kind of thinking do you think you'd pass?

But every stupid voted leave

Schrodingers I don’t think suggesting voters must take a test before they are allowed to vote shows much intelligence.

33,577,342 people voted in the referendum as there were plenty of others who didn’t take up their right to vote.
Apart from it being u democratic it would be extremely hard to organise it.

What form would it take? Would all voters sit in a large hall with invigilators? Good luck with organising that.
Who would mark it?
Would there be right of appeal?
Who would decide on the questions?

Presumably since you came up with this idea you’ve thought it through how to put it into practice.
If that’s your idea of democracy then I hope you’re never in a position where you make the rules.

I think Covid has done Boris Johnson a lot of favours in deflecting from the realities of Brexit

Well it's not like it was his idea so not sure he'd care and he hasn't got to worry about losing an election any time soon. We're down to one real party and several versions of the Raving Loony Party.

Still I'm sure he has enjoyed having to give away all that money. You know what Tories are like. Can't stop handing money out

Maybe you need to reassess your friendship group. Unless you mean you only know three leave voters, two of who are "proper" racists. (Is there an "improper racist" btw? Is that someone who hates all Asians, except for the one she's met?)
It's my family.
I also follow lots of Leave groups on FB, including main stream ones, the racism is horrible, you are being deliberately blind if you think it doesn't exist, or is the 'tiny minority' people like to pretend it is.

@Kendodd

Oh and most Leave voters I know irl are racists, proper "they should all fuck off home" racists. And they couldn't even distinguish between the 2015 migrant crisis and FoM, it was all the same thing in their head.

You might want to examine the company you keep rather than calling a huge portion of the population thick.

Oh and I know 'not all Leave voters are racist' blar, blar, blar, I know that and I never said they were.

@Sillyduckseverywhere
As I said, it's my family and I'm very low contact with them.

You know what Tories are like. Can't stop handing money out

Mainly in the form of lucrative contracts to their mates! The same kind of mates who will benefit from Brexit.

Of course Covid has caused issues for the Tories but it has detracted from the shambles that is Brexit. We can't move at the movement so the impact of loss of freedom of it is pushed down the line.

But of course like buying artwork this issue will only effect rich people so it'll be "another price worth paying for our sovereignty

During WW2, people lost their lives to retain sovereignty and freedom. Of course national sovereignty is of foremost importance.

But now the discussion revolves around a bit of extra import tax on a piece of art with an already high price tag...

We never lost our sovereignty, while being a major part of the EU

A tragedy for architects and students of architecture

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/opinion/brexit-is-closing-doors-for-uk-architects-working-in-europe?utmcontent=buffer14988&utmmmedium=social&utmsource=facebook.com&utmmcampaign=buffer&fbclid=IwAR1PnI5UV65ykZOuci0HXnKnvIqnFzoSGbr8nyP2IVZDUzErZYrzoEQiBkA

My brother has applied for an EU passport as it will greatly enhance his employability and opportunities as a research scientist. He needs to be able to take jobs in the EU or travel to conferences and events easily. Luckily he can get a second passport. I can't (different dads) so have had my FOM cut against my wishes. The shit thing is that everyone I know of who voted leave is either retired and sitting pretty on a good pension with some kind of rose tinted view of the good old days or has no ambition beyond going to the pub again and getting a bag of chips for tea. Their horizons are tiny and their irrational prejudices and possibly envy (university and jobs abroad are for "posh people") have been allowed to destroy the future of our brightest and most ambitious young people.

During WW2, people lost their lives to retain sovereignty and freedom. Of course national sovereignty is of foremost importance.

It is and of course we never lost national sovereignty, even when in the EU, but congratulations on managing to bring WW2 into this particular debate..

I've got my leave to remain in Germany meeting tomorrow. I might go for citizenship at a later date but I've been here 11 years and don't anticipate any major issues coming up.

The PPs who talked about greater day-to-day control of migrants in Europe are correct - in Germany there is the obligation for everyone to produce ID (passport) in many situations even such mundane things as setting up getting your bins taken away. You have to have health insurance and you have to register in person at the town hall for every new address. I'm supposed to carry my passport at all times in lieu of an ID card. I'm also bound to carry a document showing I own my car and that I'm insured and road taxed. Working cash in hand is a serious criminal offence and frowned upon.

It's a shame the UK was so lax about monitoring who is/ was living there. A bit more organisation would have probably made the native Brits less anxious.

@RickJames absolutely agree. The fact is that the Home Office had no idea who was in the country and if anyone overstayed their welcome simply sent them a letter asking them to leave UK territory. The Home Office didn't have the resources to deal with this and simply didn't care.

I'm getting the feeling the thread has run it's course and as always it's Brexit related and agreement won't be reached

I agree that agreement won’t be reached but nonetheless it’s enjoyable having a discussion.
Kendodd, I know you start Brexit threads quite often - can you continue to do so on AIBU or chat or whatever rather than in the Brexit topic as no one goes there anymore except you and the regulars.