We did not end freedom of movement. The only people we ended fom for is ourselves and our children.

[Kendodd]

I don't know why we would celebrate this.
The children of our EU friends living here still have their fom, when they leave school they'll be free to live and work in any one of 31 countries (I'm pleased for them) our children won't be. I've heard 'EU passport holder' is starting to appear on CVs now as it makes people a more attractive employee in certain sectors.

Oh and I grew up in one of the most deprived areas in the country on state benefits attending a failing school. I made use of fom in my youth and it gave me opportunities young people in my situation won't have anymore. It's not just for rich people.

@RickJames

I've got my leave to remain in Germany meeting tomorrow. I might go for citizenship at a later date but I've been here 11 years and don't anticipate any major issues coming up.

The PPs who talked about greater day-to-day control of migrants in Europe are correct - in Germany there is the obligation for everyone to produce ID (passport) in many situations even such mundane things as setting up getting your bins taken away. You have to have health insurance and you have to register in person at the town hall for every new address. I'm supposed to carry my passport at all times in lieu of an ID card. I'm also bound to carry a document showing I own my car and that I'm insured and road taxed. Working cash in hand is a serious criminal offence and frowned upon.

It's a shame the UK was so lax about monitoring who is/ was living there. A bit more organisation would have probably made the native Brits less anxious.

And this is one of the issues. I don't want want any more day-to-day controls in my daily life, thanks. Interactions I have with outfits like DVLA and my Local Council tell me I don't need any more. I certainly don't want to be compelled to carry a passport around. I'd prefer it if the UK as whole had a better attitude to not working cash in hand, but that is a tricky culture to change. Our cultural norms and legal system are not the same as the EU generality and were never going to be.

People often say that, but in 10 years living in Spain, 3 Luxembourg and 3 in Italy I've never ever been randomly asked to show my id. I obviously don't carry it with my when jogging, or in fact hardly ever, even though I'm meant to.

My European friends think it's so strange that you can exist "off grid" in the UK without having any form of Id, and my UK friends think having national ID cards is a horrific prospect. The reality, as with most things, is that neither is as extreme or weird as the other thinks it is. There are benefits and drawbacks as with everything.

@QuentinInQuarantino some sanity in a sea of suspicion, thank you

I don't want want any more day-to-day controls in my daily life, thanks. Interactions I have with outfits like DVLA and my Local Council tell me I don't need any more.

FWIW during plus years in France the only time I've ever been stopped and asked for actual passport type ID was once, during a roadside check during one of the Covid lockdowns (to help verify reason for travel).

The most obvious routine "check" I can think of that residents most people suffer on regular'ish basis here is perhaps having to produce their healthcare card or attestation when dealing with hospitals or docs..not exactly an onerous requirement and I'd have thought a form of "control" many would approve of.

Yeah I don't see the big deal with IDs tbh, especially since most people in the UK carry their drivers licence or provisional as it is. It's really no different to that. And like pp have said - I've never been asked to 'prove my status' by showing my ID living anywhere in Europe - just at official things like opening bank account or registering to get my tax number or whatever. All things I had to do when I came to the UK!

@QuentinInQuarantino

Yeah, I've never had to show ID outside of a situation I was expecting either. I'm just supposed to be able to

The PP that said she didn't want to have to be showing ID and stuff all the time - fair enough. It's not British culture to do that so I imagine it would also rankle. German culture is weirdly obedient. I'm glad there's a few, but vocal, nutty Germans that are obsessed with freedom and personal autonomy, they provide a balance!

A tragedy for architects and students of architecture

There is no tragedy. All they are saying is that they will register in France but that, due to Brexit, they will have to produce more documentation and proof of compliance will be required.

The same, for instance, if you were to be treated in the UK by a doctor who qualified abroad. You would want him/her to be adequately trained before being allowed to practice here?

Similar reciprocity agreements are in place for different professions all over the world.

we no longer have reciprocity of recognition for our qualifications in the EU. What was a simple administrative application is now turning into a much more complex process, with more paperwork and proofs of compliance required

we are currently in the process of registering all our principals in France. Before Brexit, it was a straightforward matter of doing this locally but now we have to do this centrally for every project in whichever country we’re working in, and it’s a lot more complex and lengthy process

The PP that said she didn't want to have to be showing ID and stuff all the time - fair enough. It's not British culture to do that so I imagine it would also rankle.

FWIW over the years I had in two occupations in the UK where carrying and being prepared to produce an ID was a requirement, and in one of those the ID also had to be visibly displayed at all times when at work.

I'm not sure carriage of an ID these days is as alien to UK culture as some like to make out, though I accept the idea of producing it to a police officer on demand might raise hackles.

being prepared to produce an ID was a requirement

There are countries where carrying an ID is a requirement which would still find controlling immigration properly very difficult if faced with a pre-Brexit environment.

I'm not convinced IDs are so relevant for this discussion

I've lived in Italy for over 20 years and have never randomly been asked to show id.

My dd wants to be an architect. I think her additional EU passport is going to be very useful for job applications. She’s already looking at doing a Masters degree in Europe.

I think her additional EU passport is going to be very useful for job applications

Anyone who is talented enough will be given opportunities anywhere in the world where they would like to study/work

@turquoisewaters

I think her additional EU passport is going to be very useful for job applications

Anyone who is talented enough will be given opportunities anywhere in the world where they would like to study/work

You are being naive if you think that employers are going to choose candidates that don’t have the automatic right to live and work over and above those that do - and may not be able to unless they can prove that they can’t hire an EU citizen.

Maybe you haven’t had to jump through those hoops before? It’s long, time consuming and expensive.

Just FYI for all those people commenting about working in the EU in the 80s, that was actually before FOm which came in 1992.

Also if you are a language student you can go to other countries outside the EU that have exchange programs. I imagine this will become the norm as well because as much as Uk students want to be able to do their year abroad in the EU, the students of the EU also want to come to the UK for theirs.

And I did my year abroad in Central America and it was amazing. Low income family also. No additional fees needed to be paid but their university was way more expensive than mine in the Uk.

Just FYI for all those people commenting about working in the EU in the 80s, that was actually before FOm which came in 1992.

FoM legislation for EEC workers was enacted in 1968.

eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31968R1612

The Maastricht Treaty in 1992 widened the scope of FoM and created EU citizenship.

Are you seriously suggesting that French students would be better taking placements in Canada (for example) than across the channel.

I really feel sorry for our aspiring young linguists. If, for example, you need a native English and French speaker in Paris then you are going to opt for a person with the right to work and live over and above a blue passport holder. We have become a two tier society, those with additional rights to live/ work in the EU and those who do not.

Anyone who is talented enough will be given opportunities anywhere in the world where they would like to study/work

What about if you're not talented enough? You're just Job Bloggs ordinary and not the 1% extraordinary? Fuck them?
I remember a brexit voting MNetter saying once the working class kids handing out flyers or working in bars on the Costas shouldn't be working there anyway 'as they're all drug dealers'.
As always though, posh kids will be fine.

We have become a two tier society, those with additional rights to live/ work in the EU and those who do not.

Indeed.
And it's not just jobs in the EU, in some professions, in UK based roles, an EU passport would make a candidate more attractive, the City and creative industries for example.

I was saying that EU universities will
Likely adopt similar programs that universities outside the EU have with EU universities. Their students want exchange as much as ours do.

@justab0utsurviving my degree was in Italian. Just wondering where I might have gone to study that outside of the EU?

@QuentinInQuarantino likely exchange programs will be set up. How do you think US students of Italian are able to study in Italy? Or any country outside of the EU ? Universities set up mutually beneficial exchanges.

[quote justab0utsurviving]@QuentinInQuarantino likely exchange programs will be set up. How do you think US students of Italian are able to study in Italy? Or any country outside of the EU ? Universities set up mutually beneficial exchanges. [/quote]
So the UK rejects a perfectly good scheme giving access to 27 European countries in order to set up new bilateral agreements?

And it should be remembered that Erasmus was not limited to language students - how much harder will it be for STEM students to study abroad now?

@Kendodd

Anyone who is talented enough will be given opportunities anywhere in the world where they would like to study/work

What about if you're not talented enough? You're just Job Bloggs ordinary and not the 1% extraordinary? Fuck them?
I remember a brexit voting MNetter saying once the working class kids handing out flyers or working in bars on the Costas shouldn't be working there anyway 'as they're all drug dealers'.
As always though, posh kids will be fine.

I'm glad someone has pointed this out, that line about how 'talented people can work anywhere' always comes up and it's really starting to get to me. I mean, it's great that talented and rich people can work anywhere they want, UK citizens with second passports can still work there, but sometimes I feel like the only person in the country who wants to live in the EU but is basically locked out now.

I lived there, studied there and worked there before, I'm the same person with the same skills to offer, but my own country has decided to put an invisible wall in the way

[quote justab0utsurviving]@QuentinInQuarantino likely exchange programs will be set up. How do you think US students of Italian are able to study in Italy? Or any country outside of the EU ? Universities set up mutually beneficial exchanges. [/quote]
@justab0utsurviving American students have to show an income of €900 a month to get a student visa for Italy.

You're meant to be studying, not working. I couldn't have afforded €900 a month. I would have been priced out.

link to the entry requirements for American students.

@QuentinInQuarantino that link is for doing a full degree in Italy. We are talking about year abroad or semester abroad programs which are completely different.