What do we think about THIS....Trigger warning - Graphic Image **title edited by MNHQ

[Nothappywiththis]

I’m not in support of thus. AIBU??

@Fembot123

I don’t play sports but that doesn’t mean I can turn blind eye.

So what can someone like me do to help? to say no to this bs. How can my voice or actions help

Well, for example I don't think there is any argument that you could apply to to transwomen being excluded from women's aport that couldn't also be used to legitimise the exclusion of women from the military and, by extension, any job with a physical element.

You do know that roles that require certain physical elements make allowances for female's capacity to the the role. Just like sport. You have kinda missed the point completely. Tasks are adjusted based on the maintaining the health of all the people doing them. And most of these are completed as a team if it does indeed require 'heavy' work.

And people in this topic are reaching to do it. Yes, studies shows that the average man has physical advantages over the average woman.

The study I posted was a study that included lowered testosterone but perhaps you missed it.

'Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage'
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Feminizing hormones reduce that gap. How much of a gap remains in sports read the research. And maybe even then look at the World Rugby as they have worked very hard on identifying this gap.

To me, that is a relevant question to be asked before excluding transwomen and just accepting that women should exclude themselves from all physical matters in the same way we exclude children.

What does this mean?

Fallon Fox has been beaten by a biological woman who knew she was fighting transwoman and accepted the fight under those circumstances.

So ONE woman beat FF so it is ok then? Again, there are many reasons why transwomen should not be included in women's sports. 'Winning' is just one small part of it. And it also shows you simply do not care about women to consider the others.

neron please define what is meant by living as a woman? If it relies on being able to join anything ser up for women , and be validated by them then I don’t accept that.

@Neron

They are not female though. That is the whole point. I haven't missed the point. They are not female biologically, but they ID as one hence why we have fallon fox, a male to 'female', now competing in the female category.

so? they still are males
So why are we having this thread? If that was the case we wouldn't have all these athletes names in this thread, competing in the female category if it was as simple as them still being males?

If a female transitioned to male, they could enter the male category. If someone is living as a female then no they can't enter the male category.

If a female transitioned to male, they could enter the male category. If someone is living as a female then no they can't enter the male category.

again I ask, why can't they enter the male category? What clubs are telling them that they cannot enter the male category?

Or are you simply posting 'your personal view' that they cannot enter the male category/

Is it ok if I identify as a 80 year old runner and compete against them?
I can tell you that I am very mature so that must equate to living as a an 80 year old. Ok for me to enter the masters in that category?

It's only possible to live as a woman by being born as one. Anything else is based on sexist stereotypes on what some people think women should look like and how they behave. But of course women often don't fall into these sexist stereotypes. The one concrete thing that they have in common, that unites them, is their biological sex. Which is why it's not possible to self ID as a woman. It doesn't mean anything. And it's why transwomen are a subset of men, not a different type of woman. Because the one thing they have in common with other men is their biological sex. Which is is why those who are biological men, no matter how feminine they present, should compete in male categories, trans categories or mixed categories. But never women's categories. Because they don't meet the criteria of the female biological sex.

Is this a concern within your area of sport or again is this something that you must not openly discuss?

I just can’t wrap my head around how we gone from women having right to play sports to men taking it away again. What’s infuriating is that women didn’t get it handed on a plate.

It won't be an issue for me in the near future. My physical area (non-woke!), association (non-woke old-fashioned Mr Miyagis who would have no truck with it!) means this will not be the chosen battleground for envelope pushing and edge-case testing.

But I am very worried today, on account of this link, presented up thread. If the precedent does get set, then it will eventually affect other clubs all other the country.

the-bkc.com/2021/01/23/gender-diversity-in-kickboxing/

A women that has transitioned to a man can apply to join a male rugby team or compete at gymnastics in the olympics. But let’s not be polite here they won’t stand a chance. As the top female tennis play has been quoted as saying there are at least 100 male players in front of her.

Fallon Fox has been beaten by a biological woman who knew she was fighting transwoman and accepted the fight under those circumstances.

The likelihood of winning isn't the most problematic part, that's what you don't seem to be getting.

It's also the fact that a spot is being taken from a girl or woman and also the fact that in many sports the safety of girls and women is more likely to be compromised when competing against someone born male, especially someone who has benefitted from male puberty.

It's so reductive to imply it's about people being a sore loser / just about winning. Female athletes would rather have a place and lose than lose their place entirely!

Female athletes would rather have their health and safety less compromised than risk being injured and losing time in the sport they work hard in due to necessary recovery time. Or inevitably at some point some female athletes will be losing their careers through injury caused by competing against someone born male.

We are at the point now where if a high level, current female athlete said they were going to refuse to compete against trans women due to fears around injury, the fact a female team mate would be bumped and the fact female records would be broken by natal males who would be 100th or less in the male sport, that female athlete would be labelled transphobic and lose sponsorships. This is madness.

There are no studies that prove it is safe for natal males who are trans women to compete against natal women in contact sports.

@Coffeeandcocopops

A women that has transitioned to a man can apply to join a male rugby team or compete at gymnastics in the olympics. But let’s not be polite here they won’t stand a chance. As the top female tennis play has been quoted as saying there are at least 100 male players in front of her.

Exactly. And they would be doing something in which they were more likely to be injured and less likely to get a spot on a national team for example.

Whereas trans women who wish to compete in female sports aren't just more likely to beat records and win, they are also less likely to get injured and more likely to get a spot on a national team for example.

youvegottenminuteslynn

The way people are handwaving away basic risk-assessment in order to be 'progressive' is mind-boggling.

So why are we having this thread? If that was the case we wouldn't have all these athletes names in this thread, competing in the female category if it was as simple as them still being males?

It is such a good question!

Why are we having this thread? Because a group of people who are male felt that they should be able to compete as a woman because of their gender identity. The world organisations, who are mostly led by males, seemed to think this was kind and that women wouldn't mind maybe? I don't think they EVER asked.

Because a group of people have believed that they have indeed changed biological sex (including you it seems, you believe they have too as you say they are female). The current view of 'being king' is that to say they are not female is hate speech, it certainly gets people banned from social media and maybe even terminated from their employment.

Because to conduct research into the gaps was being deemed 'transphobic' and any debate was shut down as hateful.

Because there is a group of people whose need to believe they are women negates all the advantages they have had in their lifetime as men and they can miraculously take on the oppression women have experienced all their lives.

Now it is very important here to point out that there are trans people who believe that for them to compete against women is clearly unfair. There are trans women who understand their unique needs in the world and understand that they are still male.

At what point does it become fair when studies have also shown some results where transwomen have reversed the effects of cross sex hormones with training?

Please do share why you think it is fair that transwomen compete with women apart from the very simplistic 'they are women'.

It seems to me this is simply a plea to women to 'be nice', 'damp down that loss, it was for the greater good', 'sorry you missed that medal, just fucking try harder though you need to win it on merit and your physical limitations mean fucking nothing when a person who says they are a 'woman' but is a male can still beat you'.

@Smallgoon

I just find it interesting that people are so quick to asert that males would outperform women in absolutely everything. They wouldn't. Lionel Messi probably wouldn't stand a chance in a fight against a woman much bigger and much heavier than him - say Mrs Trunchball from Matilda etc. Yes, the height/weight difference is relevant according to the posters posting pics, and clearly amplifying this point.

I don't know enough about this Fallon character to judge. I don't know how long they trained to be an MMA fighter, or indeed any type of martial arts. If they transitioned, and then soon after became an MMA fighter (circa 2013) and then fought female MMA fighters (fighters very experienced in martial arts) who were same weight/height etc - I can't see how Fallon has an advantage.

I don't watch MMA. Any sport which allows you to enter a ring and break the opposing player's limbs/skull etc for me is sadistic and not entertainment. But I understand some people do enjoy watching MMA. My brother for example who watches both male and female fights. He wouldn't ever dream of stepping into a ring with a female MMA fighter because he'd get the living daylights kicked out of him. He's 5'10 and 12 stone. I doubt he'd be willing to step into a ring with a 5'6 female MMA fighter.

Please FFS read at least one of the many posts which show your posts up as having no point.

Because for those struggling to get their head round this ....

If DH and I decided right here and now to take a slug at each other (no experience of martial arts on either side, similar height, DH weighs a bit more than me but I weight train x 1 per week), my best punch might cause superficial damage to his face, maybe bust his lip.

His best punch wound probably knock me off my feet and possibly a tooth or two out.

Biology fucking matters and anyone who says otherwise in this context has a serious problem.

kind not king

Women are NOT superheroes despite what movies and social media tell us.

Have some people been drinking that much Koolaid? Or do they simply not care about girl's and women's sports and the impact losing sporting opportunities have on lives..... or hang on.... I got it now. Those lives don't matter because they are merely girls and women.

And YES. Transowomen CAN still compete. IN THEIR OWN SEX CLASS. or make it clearer that the men's classes are open to anyone who wants to compete.

To say that excluding transwomen and transgirls from women's and girl's sport means they cannot participate, please stop lying. They can still compete with their own sex, whereas girls and women cannot, and do not have that option depending on the sport.

To say that excluding transwomen and transgirls from women's and girl's sport means they cannot participate, please stop lying.

Sorry. that is

To those that say that excluding transwomen and transgirls from women's and girl's sport means they cannot participate, please stop lying.

Why is it that every other delusion - people who identify as God, as Elvis, as a guru, people who poach other peoples' identities or create fake ones - are seen as a psychiatric condition or a criminal in the case of grifters but when men identify as women they're applauded?

Transwomen are not women.

Its the eternal question @rawalpindithelabrador

DedlyMedally

"Yes, studies shows that the average man has physical advantages over the average woman."

Reality shows that an average male, who transitions and becomes a transwoman, still has advantages over elite female athletes.

interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/

www.thecricketblog.com/maxine-blythin-and-the-curious-case-of-womens-cricket/

“” My brother for example who watches both male and female fights. He wouldn't ever dream of stepping into a ring with a female MMA fighter because he'd get the living daylights kicked out of him. He's 5'10 and 12 stone. I doubt he'd be willing to step into a ring with a 5'6 female MMA fighter.””

Completely missing the point. Also no respect to the years of training someone has done to even step into the ring.

To all of the "woke" people on this thread, who think that there is no problem here, can you honestly say, that if you had a daughter who grew up swimming and worked her way up to Olympic standard, and became the Champion, that you would have no problem with a trans woman competing in her race, and taking her title away? And possibly see your daughter quit because she simply can't win anymore?

Does anyone think that would be acceptable for their own daughter? Anyone???????

There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know’.

334bu

That is an old saying and one which has stood the test of time. We can give all the examples, all the records, the facts, but at the end of the day, the 97% can never convince the 3% who do not wish to listen.

The 3% probably think that the Suffragettes were over reacting, and that Emmeline Pankhurst should have just shut the fuck up or gone back to her knitting

There are still women who don't believe women should have the vote.

@SqeakyHindge

*@Fembot123*

I don’t play sports but that doesn’t mean I can turn blind eye.

So what can someone like me do to help? to say no to this bs. How can my voice or actions help

That’s really kind, I’m not sure as I left the sport and I left boxing after I got whiplash so bad the physio asked if I’d been in a crash. I stick to BJJ now at a club with a very ethical coach. I know @MissLucyEyelesbarrow has shared a link to share views on the matter.