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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What do we think about THIS....Trigger warning - Graphic Image **title edited by MNHQ

806 replies

Nothappywiththis · 14/02/2021 15:36

I’m not in support of thus. AIBU??

OP posts:
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39
DedlyMedally · 15/02/2021 13:53

@Helmetbymidnight

I think you're stepping into territory with dangerous implications when your argument is that most women can't compete with most men, so just concede when physicality is involved.

can you explain this pls.

you believe womens only sports are in dangerous territory?
however men who identify as women playing in womens sports will take us out of that "dangerous territory"?

you cant mean this, can you?

Well, for example I don't think there is any argument that you could apply to to transwomen being excluded from women's aport that couldn't also be used to legitimise the exclusion of women from the military and, by extension, any job with a physical element.

And people in this topic are reaching to do it. Yes, studies shows that the average man has physical advantages over the average woman.
Feminizing hormones reduce that gap. How much of a gap remains in sports with weight classes?
To me, that is a relevant question to be asked before excluding transwomen and just accepting that women should exclude themselves from all physical matters in the same way we exclude children.
Fallon Fox has been beaten by a biological woman who knew she was fighting transwoman and accepted the fight under those circumstances.

singingsoprano · 15/02/2021 13:53

This reply has been deleted

Post references deleted post Talk Guidelines.

Fembot123 · 15/02/2021 13:53

And I thought at the time I just had to suck it up and it was just part of sparring but it really isn’t, he took some stuff out on me that day and obviously sparring is supposed to be light.

FossilisedFanny · 15/02/2021 13:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Neron · 15/02/2021 13:53

They are not female though. That is the whole point.
I haven't missed the point. They are not female biologically, but they ID as one hence why we have fallon fox, a male to 'female', now competing in the female category.

so? they still are males
So why are we having this thread? If that was the case we wouldn't have all these athletes names in this thread, competing in the female category if it was as simple as them still being males?

If a female transitioned to male, they could enter the male category. If someone is living as a female then no they can't enter the male category.

ArabellaScott · 15/02/2021 13:54

@SummerBlondey

It will take the death of a female athlete, to make the world sit up and question what's going on here. There will be a fatal blow in boxing, or a fatal tackle in Rugby. It WILL happen.
I hate to say it, but I don't think that will have much of an impact. As you can see here, people will shrug and say it was unfortunate, but so what, there are risks involved in sport and why should that mean we exclude people like Fallon Fox from fulfilling a dream of smashing women's heads.

People just don't care if women get injured. See the UK trans rugby player who folds opponents 'like deckchairs', cue laughs all round.

PotholeParadies · 15/02/2021 13:56

Ah, deadlifts.

Compare and contrast, folks!

What do we think about THIS....Trigger warning - Graphic Image **title edited by MNHQ
What do we think about THIS....Trigger warning - Graphic Image **title edited by MNHQ
ArabellaScott · 15/02/2021 13:56

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49298550

'Brian Minty, who founded the team four years ago, says: "I've always taken rugby as a totally inclusive sport and we're happy to welcome Kelly to the club.

"One of the main things Kelly does is give confidence to the other people around her. We've got a number of people who've only just started playing."

He can't resist a joke, though, adding: "She's going to be a good, good player for the next few years, as long as we can stop her injuring players in training."

Minty-Madley says Kelly is not treated differently to other members of the squad.

"Kelly has become completely and utterly absorbed into the team," she says.

"She's one of us. She comes in, trains hard, plays hard and parties hard with us afterwards.

"She folded a girl like a deckchair during a game, which was quite funny, but they're still friends."

andyoldlabour · 15/02/2021 13:57

334bu

"Not much difference in height but winner is 44 more then twice the age of the silver medallist. Wonder how they managed that at such an advanced age for a female athlete??"

This is 46 year old Natalie Van Gogh, still competing in UCI cycling events for a top European professional team.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_van_Gogh

Winesalot · 15/02/2021 13:58

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

I don't think I've heard a convincing reason why a man who has dampen their testosterone below a determined level has an inherent advantage over women

you're in luck @DedlyMedally! as a biologist you will be well equipped to understand the papers that winesalot has linked to in this thread which will provide you with just such reasons

happy reading!

I have wondered actually why Dedly has not provided any argument against Hilton and Lundberg. i have posted it twice already.

Maybe this is a case of idealism winning over science. Or maybe Dedly knows of a study that we don't. I would really like to know.

I would be most disappointed to see one of Harper's papers presented as evidence to refute the point that even reducing T doesn't remove the advantage. But, let's see.

PotholeParadies · 15/02/2021 13:58

@Fembot123

And I thought at the time I just had to suck it up and it was just part of sparring but it really isn’t, he took some stuff out on me that day and obviously sparring is supposed to be light.
Flowers Yeah, I think most female martial artists have run into that type of bloke.

Good clubs chuck them out.

ShotgunShack · 15/02/2021 13:58

I remember a person on MN once arguing that women might invent new Olympic sports, such as the low level limbo where they would be able to try and continue competing.

Smallgoon was it you by any chance?

FossilisedFanny · 15/02/2021 13:59

A man can identify as a woman all he likes it doesn’t make him a woman . Any more than me standing in a garage identifying as a car makes me a bloody Vauxhall Viva .

334bu · 15/02/2021 13:59

someone is living as a female then no they can't enter the male category.

Why not ???
Absolutely nothing stopping them, it is only female sport that is restricted.

TheQueef · 15/02/2021 13:59

It's bliss?!?
It's Bliss!

Is it fuck, it's abuse. Plain old violent abuse.

reprehensibleme · 15/02/2021 14:00

boysvswomen.com/#/

It's worth reposting (again and again and again)

SqeakyHindge · 15/02/2021 14:00

@PotholeParadies

The first thing I would think would be social ramifications. If you officially enter something and then withdraw on the day because you see your opponent, everyone would know why. It'll be Ms Y is transphobic all round the club and all over social media. And you'd know that everyone else in a leadership position had allowed the entry, and wasn't on your side.

I can't imagine the pressure you'd be under not to withdraw at an officially-booked event.

Is this a concern within your area of sport or again is this something that you must not openly discuss?

I just can’t wrap my head around how we gone from women having right to play sports to men taking it away again. What’s infuriating is that women didn’t get it handed on a plate.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/02/2021 14:04

Ooh! That all sounds very reasonable! Doesn't it?

Feminizing hormones reduce that gap. How much of a gap remains in sports with weight classes? So... men are being allowed to compete BEFORE any evidence has been collated. Women have to put up wth competing against men until more data is collected that shows the same as has been known for a century! THAT is the problem. Also current data shows that any hormone therapy that will have a larger impact, positive or negative, will also have some serious health implications.

To me, that is a relevant question to be asked before excluding transwomen and just accepting that women should exclude themselves from all physical matters in the same way we exclude children. To me that's a question that should be answered before any woman is put in harm's way! Your use of accepting is intersting. We should acknowledge that women have a physical disadvantage in sport. There is no shame in the reality of a female body!

Fallon Fox has been beaten by a biological woman who knew she was fighting transwoman and accepted the fight under those circumstances. For the 4th time, I think. Nobody is saying that no women can beat a male in any sport. REALLY nobody is!

What is being said is that any male competing in a female sport removes a woman. Prevents a woman from continuing uninterrupted along her career path.Any male in a female sport will prevent women from carrying on, at any level. Taking college places, training places, funding and medals. Three men in one sport could mean that female records, championships are held by men.

As a biologist you can't argue against that without deferring to the idea that an innate feeling trumps science!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/02/2021 14:05

@Neron

They are not female though. That is the whole point. I haven't missed the point. They are not female biologically, but they ID as one hence why we have fallon fox, a male to 'female', now competing in the female category.

so? they still are males
So why are we having this thread? If that was the case we wouldn't have all these athletes names in this thread, competing in the female category if it was as simple as them still being males?

If a female transitioned to male, they could enter the male category. If someone is living as a female then no they can't enter the male category.

Can someone unwind that for me? Self referencing and circular. I got dizzy!
Fembot123 · 15/02/2021 14:05

They didn’t and I left, I felt ashamed as I cried and felt so embarrassed but it made me feel so vulnerable in a way that fighting a woman (even one better and bigger than me didn’t) plus it bloody hurt, I genuinely thought I was the one in the wrong.

334bu · 15/02/2021 14:05

American junior college basketball team.
Amazingly one of their members is still playing at the ripe old age of 52. Wonder who it could be? How have they managed to maintain their personal fitness to this level and still cope with the menopause . Scientific wonder maybe a biologist should do some research?

What do we think about THIS....Trigger warning - Graphic Image **title edited by MNHQ
CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/02/2021 14:07

@reprehensibleme

boysvswomen.com/#/

It's worth reposting (again and again and again)

Now now! You and your bloody facts Smile
Winterjoy · 15/02/2021 14:10

As PP have said, it will probably take the death of a woman to raise widespread outcry. The only other potential catalyst I can think of would be if 'stand out stars' with big media followings started to get dethroned. E.g. Simone Biles is currently widely lauded by mainstream media as GOAT in women's gymnastics, considered untouchable by the competition for several years. If a male bodied athlete were to start competing and push her out of gold medal position, it would be a massive story and maybe put pressure on sporting federations. I'm sure there are examples in other sports, although of course GOAT performance level is rare and not seen in every generation!

Sad as it is, it will be $$$$ that dictates the rules over common sense. Either public outcry scaring off sponsors or a lawsuit because someone's been killed etc

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 15/02/2021 14:13

Well, for example I don't think there is any argument that you could apply to to transwomen being excluded from women's aport that couldn't also be used to legitimise the exclusion of women from the military and, by extension, any job with a physical element

Most manual/physical jobs require a certain minimum level of strength. They do not require that everyone who undertakes them has the same level of strength, otherwise women would already be excluded from them, which they are not.

You are trying to make a slippery slope argument that insisting on single sex sports will somehow be misappropriated to turf women out of certain jobs with a physical element. The weakness of this argument is that the opening up of almost all jobs to women co-incided with women gaining sporting rights. It also relies on the assumption that the world has somehow not noticed that women are weaker than men, and that defending single sex sports will set off a chain reaction, leading to employers firing women for being weaker, having never noticed that before. And that's just really silly, isn't it?

PotholeParadies · 15/02/2021 14:13

@Fembot123

They didn’t and I left, I felt ashamed as I cried and felt so embarrassed but it made me feel so vulnerable in a way that fighting a woman (even one better and bigger than me didn’t) plus it bloody hurt, I genuinely thought I was the one in the wrong.
You were absolutely not in the wrong. Toxic club there. The instructors and any senior students in the vicinity should have intervened before you got hurt. Everyone involved except you deserved a bollocking.

Covid means that classes aren't taking place right now, but there is a bloke at my club (recent joiner) who I am very dubious about. I kept having to step in and say "oi she's half your size". Amazing how often he seems to forget we're not in a Marvel film. Hmm But I digress.

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