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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What do we think about THIS....Trigger warning - Graphic Image **title edited by MNHQ

806 replies

Nothappywiththis · 14/02/2021 15:36

I’m not in support of thus. AIBU??

OP posts:
Thread gallery
39
Fembot123 · 15/02/2021 13:40

@PotholeParadies

Fembot123

Bit of an assumption that you’d actually beat them

Dunno about the running (I'm not a natural runner), but I am absolutely in there for county level under-12s Karate. Grin

Grin
SummerBlondey · 15/02/2021 13:40

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BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/02/2021 13:41

say Mrs Trunchball from Matilda etc.

fuck me. you're using fictional characters to make your point? I'm just gonna assume you're a spoof poster from here on in @Smallgoon

The blinkers are astonishing aren't they?

  1. if you are an average sized woman, most men will be taller, heavier, faster and stronger than you
  2. if you are an average sized women, men the same height and weight as you will ALSO be stronger and faster than you unless you seriously unusual

It like people think that women's rights get set back in some way by accepting that men are physically bigger and stronger than women. they don't you know. you're thinking like a man - might = right

Winesalot · 15/02/2021 13:41

Now smallgoon might be a good time to actually read the resources that have been posted in this thread. You keep asserting 'small men'. Yes, some 'small men' will be beaten by some 'large powerful women'. Those 'small men' will usually be completely untrained and unfit.

The evidence has been shown that men in the lowest percentiles of strength will sit at the same level as women in the highest percentiles.

Can you honestly tell me that Messi is a small untrained, unfit man who would sit in the bottom percentile?

I think you are reaching and I think that you realise you are reaching with an example like this. And science simply provides the evidence that you are most unlikely very wrong.

TriflePudding · 15/02/2021 13:41

smallgoon

You appear to be arguing that the women who are assaulted, beaten and raped by men could in fact fight them off if they wanted to... is that what you are saying ?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 15/02/2021 13:42

@Neron

I find it perfectly easy and fair to insist that males compete in the male sex category But they are no longer identifying as males for a start, and secondly, they won't be allowed to compete with the males if they are now 'female'.

If we create a group for TP, we are effectively ostracising them. If we start saying ok, you ID as female, but you can't go in to female sports, then they are excluded. If we say OK join, it is dangerous to the biological females. There is no winner.

They are not female though. That is the whole point.

And they are not excluded from sport, they are just excluded from playing in women's teams.

VioletAlder · 15/02/2021 13:43

They wouldn't. Lionel Messi probably wouldn't stand a chance in a fight against a woman much bigger and much heavier than him - say Mrs Trunchball from Matilda etc

Miss Trunchbull (fictional) is played by male actors on stage, it being a key part of the character that she is intimidatingly large & hulks over the rest of the cast. So that's a rather odd equivalency...

BTW Scunthorpe is taking the piss - I've seen her posts on FWR! Definitely a fine example of the Poe effect there, because there's not much in that post that hasn't been trotted out by assorted TRAs & Aunt Lydias elsewhere.

DedlyMedally · 15/02/2021 13:44

@andyoldlabour

DedlyMedally

Do you know anything about sports, anatomy or physiology?

I've trained powerlifting (purely recreationally) for over a decade (I can deadlift 2.5 times my bodyweight on pretty much any given day if that means anything to you). I've trained in a few different martial arts (including a year or two of MMA) but I'm primarily a grappler and have competed in grappling competition, but not professionally. I have a degree in Biology from one of the UK's leading universities but admittedly I haven't used it since I graduated. I don't know where that places me on the spectrum of knowledge compares to the posters here.
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/02/2021 13:44

But they are no longer identifying as males for a start

so? they still are males

secondly, they won't be allowed to compete with the males if they are now 'female'.

  1. they're not female
  2. why can't they compete with other males? I think they can

If we create a group for TP, we are effectively ostracising them. If we start saying ok, you ID as female, but you can't go in to female sports, then they are excluded

Nope. not excluded from sports, just from those where fairness is damaged by their participation

Winesalot · 15/02/2021 13:44

But they are no longer identifying as males for a start, and secondly, they won't be allowed to compete with the males if they are now 'female'.

Why won't they be allowed. They are still males! What clubs do not allow transwomen to compete as males?

SummerBlondey · 15/02/2021 13:46

You appear to be arguing that the women who are assaulted, beaten and raped by men could in fact fight them off if they wanted to... is that what you are saying ?

Excellent point.

"I put it to you, the Jury, that my client is 5 foot 7, and the plaintive is 5 foot 10, therefore no attack or rape could have possibly occurred. She must have wanted it. And I rest my case" Hmm

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/02/2021 13:47

@Neron

I find it perfectly easy and fair to insist that males compete in the male sex category But they are no longer identifying as males for a start, and secondly, they won't be allowed to compete with the males if they are now 'female'.

If we create a group for TP, we are effectively ostracising them. If we start saying ok, you ID as female, but you can't go in to female sports, then they are excluded. If we say OK join, it is dangerous to the biological females. There is no winner.

At some point transwomen, and men, will have to accept the consequences of the choices they make. Just as everyone, no matter whi they are, has to.

If living more comfortably with your external presentation means you choose to present yourself as the opposite sex then there will be issues.

The world will not start to turn t'other way to accommodate this. But women, not men, are being asked to step back from all walks of life to accommodate it. Why?

Why are some women acquiescing so meekly?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/02/2021 13:47

I don't think I've heard a convincing reason why a man who has dampen their testosterone below a determined level has an inherent advantage over women

you're in luck @DedlyMedally! as a biologist you will be well equipped to understand the papers that winesalot has linked to in this thread which will provide you with just such reasons

happy reading!

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 15/02/2021 13:47

Trans women seem to hate real women, so when you add that to the mix

I don't think that's fair. Quite a few TW have spoken up against mixed sports. Even TW who compete against women are, in most cases, I think, motivated by their desire for glory and self-validation, not by a desire to undermine women per se (some exceptions whom I won't name here but there is a well known TW cyclist as well as the subject of the OP).

However, there are definitely a number of (non-trans) men in sports who are excited by seeing women forced to compete against men - either for sexual thrills or because they are misogynists who want to see women humiliated. These men are feeding off the transgender movement and cheering it on.

Winesalot · 15/02/2021 13:49

BTW Scunthorpe is taking the piss - I've seen her posts on FWR! Definitely a fine example of the Poe effect there, because there's not much in that post that hasn't been trotted out by assorted TRAs & Aunt Lydias elsewhere.

I did think this. It was like reading a Scunthorpe mumsnet version of Titania. The inclusion of competitive eating was a good one, but I still think there are biological advantages in being male in competitve eating as well - strangely.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 15/02/2021 13:49

@Meredithgrey1

Fighters are matched by category and weight

So why even have separate competitions for men and women then, if matching by weight is just fine.

This.

Why do we separate male and female competitors? Because it's unfair and unsafe not to do so.

Ffs. The Twitter comments from Fallon are absolutely appalling. They made me feel sick.

I'll never understand how some people can claim they want to be a woman yet hate us so much.

KinkyFink · 15/02/2021 13:49

@Smallgoon

Would the people in this thread disgusted by the skull fracture, be just as disgusted if it was at the hands of a cis woman? I only ask because it seems a lot of you aren't aware of the lack of rules around MMA fighting. It is utterly horrific full stop. Female fighters have broken other female fighters arms during these fights, as this is allowed within the rules. The rules stipulate that until somebody "taps out" they are fair game.

Seems that the disgust is solely because a trans woman won the fight, rather than the fact that MMA is a vile contact sport which shouldn't exist full stop.

There are rules in MMA and it's untrue that someone has to tap out to avoid injury. If the ref sees someone is in a dangerous spot and unable to defend they stop the fight.

These decisions are often contentious and any ref having to take this kind of fight is also having to risk criticism if they make a decision that leads to serious injury.

I train with UFC athletes and fighters on the biggest European promotions (fights have been going ahead through the pandemic) and match ups are known ahead of time unless its an interclub, which aren't happening atm anyway. If the fact than Fallon is trans wasn't known then nobody was making an informed decision on accepting the fight - we'd base a decision by looking at the opponents area of expertise (are they a grappler or a striker, orthodox or southpaw stance etc) and their 'walkaround weight' (so whether they are always close to fight weight or much heavier). There are enough variables even between female fighters.

MMA is not boxing. You can be taken down, thrown like you see in wrestling, and your opponent can strike with knees and elbows whilst you're on the ground. There are rules around the types of strike that are legal according to whether you're on the ground or standing, whether your hands are down etc. Its not a complete free-for-all and I've seen more injuries from weightlifting and football than I have in MMA. I realise it looks bloody but it's a lifeline for the young people I train with.

Women struggle enough in these sports as it is, we put up with constant sexual banter and there are only 3 female fighters in my team, including me.

I weigh 45kg and spar against men who weight 80+kg but who cut weight down to low 70s. They can throw me around like a rag doll. After a weight cut (often not done with diet alone but also by flushing the body with litres of water a day, which works differently with male hormones).

They eat and hydrate after weighing in and sometimes come out to fight with an extra 5+kg added. This makes a huge difference, especially when combined with testosterone and the other male advantages.

Overall my sport is about respect, you may trash talk but after the fight you show respect to your opponent because you both understand what it takes to get there. Fallon is the antithesis of everything we do in MMA IMO, the way Fallon talks is hugely disrespectful to female athletes. All my coaches and team mates think it's disgusting this was allowed to happen.

Coffeeandcocopops · 15/02/2021 13:50

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

There will be a fatal blow in boxing, or a fatal tackle in Rugby. It WILL happen

and in the meantime thousands of women will have made a decision to step away from their sports.

I don't think people realise that women's sport has only really been a thing for about 80 years. Much less in the case of some sports. Women fought for the right to play sport, for the resources.

and now men are stepping in and taking it away. and some of the women on this site are applauding while they do it.

for shame

Women have been allowed to run competitive marathons since 1972! That’s in my lifetime as a 56 year old. Come on let’s not go back to the days of women not entering competitive sports.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/02/2021 13:51

I've trained powerlifting (purely recreationally) for over a decade (I can deadlift 2.5 times my bodyweight on pretty much any given day if that means anything to you). So you do know that there is a significant difference in the training reaction in males and females?

I've trained in a few different martial arts (including a year or two of MMA) but I'm primarily a grappler and have competed in grappling competition, but not professionally. So you are fully aware that a male and a female with the same training regime and body stats won't get the same resultsfrom that training?

I have a degree in Biology from one of the UK's leading universities but admittedly I haven't used it since I graduated. Then you REALLY should be able to understand the points being made. Unless your degree ommitted the APPLICATION of that biology, which isn't impossible!

I don't know where that places me on the spectrum of knowledge compares to the posters here It seems to place you in the wilfully misinformed category. At the very least you should have been open to the information given and been able to process it effectively!

cracracatlady · 15/02/2021 13:51

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334bu · 15/02/2021 13:51

The people posting pics of transwoman who appear much taller than their teammates etc... You do realise that the greatest footballer in the world is 5'6 and has quite a slight build compared to other footballers, yes? Being bigger doesn't necessarily equate to being better.

Not much difference in height but winner is 44 more then twice the age of the silver medallist. Wonder how they managed that at such an advanced age for a female athlete?? Almost unbelievable isn't it.

What do we think about THIS....Trigger warning - Graphic Image **title edited by MNHQ
KinkyFink · 15/02/2021 13:52

And there are all manner of reasons why we can't include everybody in everything all the time. Inclusion shouldn't mean abandoning things that specifically exist to address inequality.

andyoldlabour · 15/02/2021 13:52

MyLittleOrangutan

"MMA is a really brutal sport but it's also weighted so I dont see how much difference it would make, I do a different, slightly less brutal martial art but I can take on a male my size and skill level."

Unbelievable!
Kim Collins the 100/200m sprinter from St Kitts and Nevis ran 9.93s for 100m.
Marion Jones, the best 100m runner of her generation ran 10.7s.
They were the same height and weight.

Fembot123 · 15/02/2021 13:52

@SummerBlondey

and in the meantime thousands of women will have made a decision to step away from their sports

Sadly I agree.

I used to do Karate. I was surprised how many seemingly normal men actually got a kick out of taking you down too hard. I quit in the end, as I knew it was only a matter of time before I would get a broken nose or worse.

Trans women seem to hate real women, so when you add that to the mix....

When I was training MMA I was sparring a man a similar height to me and I’d even say he weighed less than me, still picked me up, pile drove me into the floor and caused damage to my shoulder that has never really healed.
Winesalot · 15/02/2021 13:53

I have a degree in Biology from one of the UK's leading universities but admittedly I haven't used it since I graduated.
I don't know where that places me on the spectrum of knowledge compares to the posters here.

Somebody who should at least be able to supply evidence for their point of view then. That would be nice. Any links to studies are most welcome, you will find that we will read them.

And it also means that you should be very well able to read the study that has been linked and critique it if you disagree with it. That would be most welcome too. A well thought out and reasoned argument.

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