What do we think about THIS....Trigger warning - Graphic Image **title edited by MNHQ

[Nothappywiththis]

I’m not in support of thus. AIBU??

I never competed but when young I spent a couple of years studying goju ryu karate.

The class was mixed but only myself and one other woman attended out of 20. We were rarely paired up. This was a well controlled and taught class within safe parameters but learning throws with someone who weighs twice as much as you was extremely hard and when they threw you the power behind them was huge. That’s expected isn’t it a man twice my size. There was a guy who worked as a security guard who was an arse and liked the fact it was such a struggle for me to throw him. But much smaller teens who were not much bigger than me still had a lot of power behind those throws.

I don’t feel I am articulating this too well but at that point as much as skill comes in to it being in that mixed class it became apparent just how big the advantage was of being a man. Myself and the other woman could match some of the guys but not many their advantage was too great. I suppose I’m trying to relay what it felt like to come up against a man in a physical fighting sport. There is an art to karate and lots of self discipline it is nothing like this MMA stuff obviously.

Transwomen who have had male athletic careers are also able to extend their athletic careers well into 40s and 50s by competing with women. This also extends their earning capacity at the expense of the female athletes they usurp.
Then there are the mediocre male athletes who suddenly become champions without the years of training their female competitors have undergone.
For every transwomen athlete, however few they are , is a woman who didn't get to earn a living doing the sport she loved, who lost a sports scholarship to university because she didn't make the team etc.

I read an article on this. Surely testosterone level checks are the way to go to avoid accusations of discrimination.

My 10 year old son stopped doing judo because he was big for his age and had to spar with teenage girls. He didn't like it because he was scared he'd hurt them.

Surely testosterone level checks are the way to go to avoid accusations of discrimination.

No. If a person has been through puberty, they benefit from everything that that brings, from increased muscle mass and bone density to lung capacity. It doesn’t matter how many hormones are taken if one athlete has a physical ‘head start’ due to their biology.

@Viviennemary

I read an article on this. Surely testosterone level checks are the way to go to avoid accusations of discrimination.

Testosterone levels are only part of what gives someone born male an advantage. Even if trans women take drugs to suppress testosterone levels to female levels, they are still left with all the advantages of an originally male body. Men's hearts and lungs are 25% larger than women's. Their bones are larger. Their muscles respond differently (more fast-twitch fibres). None of that is changed by testosterone levels.

I read an article on this. Surely testosterone level checks are the way to go to avoid accusations of discrimination.

Testosterone is not the only advantage males have over women in strength and speed. How hard is that to understand?

And do you think all amateur sports should now have testosterone level checks before every event? Ludicrous.

Why is your focus here not no fairness?
Why can't women have women-only sports?

This shows the advantages that men have over women in sport.

read an article on this. Surely testosterone level checks are the way to go to avoid accusations of discrimination.

This is the Australian international female handball team. All players I assume met the IOC testosterone limits. Nothing but testosterone levels matter. What a joke!

My friends daughter plays women’s cricket at Kent county level. I wasn’t aware that there is now a transgender women on the team. Why don’t we ask a few more to join and then my friends daughter can take up knitting instead as she loses her places having put in 1000s of hours of training.

This shows the ages at which teenage boys start to outperform female world records. In most cases, it's 14 or 15. So the best female athlete in the world cannot beat a schoolboy in most sports.

Again, another regular poster demonstrates that they don't give a shit about women's rights.

It does my head in.

Testosterone level checks? I'll post this picture again.

It's quite possible that Cox and Strangio have similar levels of testosterone as Cox will be reducing their levels and taking oestrogen, and Strangio will be taking tesosterone supplementation.

Even if Strangio's levels of T are higher, Cox would be the bookie favourite to win a fight.

@Viviennemary

I read an article on this. Surely testosterone level checks are the way to go to avoid accusations of discrimination.

But testosterone levels are a small part of the advantage men have over women. Addressing that wouldn't resolve all the other advantages men have over women. Height, reach, muscle/fat ratio, heart size, bone structure, joint structure... etc etc.

Women's joints give them the advantage of flexibility in gymnastics but their chances of knee injury are much higher, for example.

Look at the photos posted on this thread, if you need evidence of men's advantage competing against women.

@Coffeeandcocopops

My friends daughter plays women’s cricket at Kent county level. I wasn’t aware that there is now a transgender women on the team. Why don’t we ask a few more to join and then my friends daughter can take up knitting instead as she loses her places having put in 1000s of hours of training.

The cricketer who, according to a cricket fan elsewhere on MN, uses a men's bat in the women's game. No wonder they're doing better than the women's game than the women using women's size bats.

Blythin is over six foot tall, btw.

@Viviennemary

I read an article on this. Surely testosterone level checks are the way to go to avoid accusations of discrimination.

Please read the thread. There are link to research papers only a page or two back that show that this approach is completely misinformed.

I would ask though what the article was that you read.

And by the way, in the UK, it already is allowable discrimination under the EA2010. Women's sports are covered by this.

So, the law allows it, science proves that males have benefits not removed by reducing testosterone. What is left? inclusiveness.

So, you really just want males to be allowed in women's sport so they feel included?

What about for the women who are then 'excluded' because there is no place for them. Is that ok with you?

Totally fair because testosterone levels!!!!

The cricketer who, according to a cricket fan elsewhere on MN, uses a men's bat in the women's game. No wonder they're doing better than the women's game than the women using women's size bats.

and has set some spectacular women's bowling records (that may never be broken by an actual woman). Blythin also plays on a local men's team ...

I feel bad for your friends daughter pp.

@Coffeeandcocopops

My friends daughter plays women’s cricket at Kent county level. I wasn’t aware that there is now a transgender women on the team. Why don’t we ask a few more to join and then my friends daughter can take up knitting instead as she loses her places having put in 1000s of hours of training.

It would be interesting though what your friends daughter thinks. Because, the other side of the coin is that the Kent team must be winning more if Max is setting records. I read an account of a rugby union player about 15 years ago whose coach knew they were male but it was never discussed with the team. This was Australian state level women's rugby.

The team kept winning and that player was awarded women's prizes. Eventually they confessed they were a transwoman and I think they no longer played after that.

Putting aside the biological argument, this was a male who had so many more and better opportunities to train, have better coaching and playing opportunities and it never entered their head how unfair it was. They felt justified.

Because it wont go back to the way it was. It's 'progress'. Just like all the other things that have changed.

PotholeParadies

"The cricketer who, according to a cricket fan elsewhere on MN, uses a men's bat in the women's game."

Blythin was playing men's cricket at club level. A woman can use a heavy bat if they wanted, but I deon't think many would. The ball in women's cricket is smaller and lighter than that used in the men's gane. The boundaries are shorter in women's cricket. The fastest woman bowler bowls at around 75MPH, whilst the quickest men bowl around 95MPH.
Blythin was made Kent women's cricketer of the year in 2019.

@Helmetbymidnight

Again, another regular poster demonstrates that they don't give a shit about women's rights.

It does my head in.

Me too. And all this claiming to 'feel like' a women. Whilst not giving a shit about us.
Broken heads, broken bones, broken records, places stolen, other women's teams disadvantaged, don't give a shit, because 'inclusion.' Yet another word whose meaning has been turned upside-down.

@Viviennemary

Because it wont go back to the way it was. It's 'progress'. Just like all the other things that have changed.

Fuck that for a game of soldiers. Maybe women should never have campaigned for the vote or equal pay because "that's just the way things are"?

There has been a very successful clandestine campaign by some trans rights activists to take over women's sports. (I am not blaming all TW by any means - lots agree it is unfair). They have got away with it because most people were unaware that it is happening. Well, now we know. It is not acceptable and we are going to fight back.

You may be happy to give up our daughters' rights to a bunch of misogynists. I am not.

@Viviennemary

Because it wont go back to the way it was. It's 'progress'. Just like all the other things that have changed.

Whatever makes you think that it won't change?

on the contrary, it will change although it may take a while. At one point, taking testosterone was ok and wasn't tested for.

There are more and more studies coming through. I know there are more in the works already. The studies all show the same thing. The court cases will start to come in too with women claiming that they were not protected in contact sport. The clubs already have the facts to hand for rugby. The Swansea University has shown just why women are more prone to head injury in rugby.

They have nothing to fall back on to absolve themselves when women get injuries due to power and performance of males on teams. They are liable.

The people posting pics of transwoman who appear much taller than their teammates etc... You do realise that the greatest footballer in the world is 5'6 and has quite a slight build compared to other footballers, yes? Being bigger doesn't necessarily equate to being better.