What do we think about THIS....Trigger warning - Graphic Image **title edited by MNHQ

[Nothappywiththis]

I’m not in support of thus. AIBU??

If potholing was a competitive sport (is it?), I wonder how men would feel, if a trans man competed? If that trans man was 5ft and a size 6, and able to get into spaces that no man could fit. Would male competitors be okay in the knowledge that they could never reach 1st place, ever again?

I don't think I've heard a convincing reason why a man who has dampen their testosterone below a determined level has an inherent advantage over women. What have you been reading/listening to? The science is pretty overwhelming!

Some women have elevated testosterone levels but will be able to fight with no problem (as long as they can pass a drug test). Yes because, as you said previously, range of measures in females!

Fallon Fox fought one woman that a reasonable MMA fan would have heard of and she lost via TKO. I think we all know that. We aren't suggesting that all men would beat all women. It's not acceptable if only ONE man takes the place of ONE woman!

But @SummerBlondey some men are teeny tiny! So, you know, natural variation and all that!

@TakeTheCuntOutOfScunthorpe

I think it's fine for TW to be included in women's sport. They're transwomenhence it's fine. If a female fighter doesn't want to fight a trans fighter, guess what, they don't have to!.

A belief your gender is female doesn't magically make your male biology go away.

My personal preference would be to do away with the gender segregation in sport altogether. It should be a meritocracy, the fastest and the strongest reaching the top.

Ah, so males to win everything then? The scientific evidence is there for all to see - biological women at the top of their sporting class still cannot complete with biology men at the top of theirs.

We wouldn't accept segregation based on race or sexuality, so why accept it based on gender (or for that matter, age)?

A ridiculous and offensive comparison. We accept segregation on the bases of sex, because that is fair play. To do so on gender beliefs is inequality for biological girls and women.

You only have to look at more enlightened sports to show this is possible. Darts for instance, technically there is a women-only tour but women are free to compete against men (and sometimes beat them). There are top-level female poker players, top-level female competitive eaters.

I mean if I didn't think you were trolling before.....

There's no reason women shouldn't take on trans or straightforward male competitors in any sport they choose.

There are many many many many valid reasons why trans women shouldn't compete against biological women in sports. Gender doesn't change your biology, allowing trans women to be in competition with biology women is no different from just having men vs women sport. That is a death sentence for women's sport. Then again, seems many would be happy with that.

And that's the thing - it's the woman's choice whether to fight or not.

And as has been said a million times, its not a choice. This is women's livelihoods and their choices are to compete against males that far more likely to beat them and cause them to lose a place, or refuse and be labelled a bigot, and lose their entire careers. What a choice.

I don't think I've heard a convincing reason why a man who has dampen their testosterone below a determined level has an inherent advantage over women

My DH is 6ft 3 & has a 50 inch chest (the broadest shoulders I've ever seen) and is 20 stone. If he reduced his testosterone, do you honestly think he would have no advantage over a female? FFS. Thank goodness 97% of people on this thread disagree with you.

Fighting based on weight?

Seems fair.

It isn’t.

The problem is not that it happened so long ago. It is the fact it is permitted to happen at all.

There wasn’t a lot of weight difference between me and my ex. I’m not a fighter but was taught how to defend myself for my job.

It did not stop him rearranging my face for ever and nearly killing me.

Like summerblondey once he had me down, I had no chance against a man.

I think most would agree that if it was generally expected that that would be the outcome in ‘real life’, how do they think it would be different in a sporting environment?

I don't think I've heard a convincing reason why a man who has dampen their testosterone below a determined level has an inherent advantage over women.

There is a peer reviewed study that shows exactly how much of an advantage males with reduced testosterone have over females. Surely you have read it, or maybe you could explain why it is not convincing.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

There was also recently a military study that followed transmen and transwomen after transition that also showed retained advantages.

perhaps you could show the findings that have 'convinced' you that there is no advantage after testosterone reduction.

Some women have elevated testosterone levels but will be able to fight with no problem (as long as they can pass a drug test).

Females with elevated testosterone have NOT got testosterone levels of males. They are not merely small men. Hence why some females are allowed to play. And this does not include males with DSDs, I am referring to females.

DedlyMedally

BarbaraofKent
@DedlyMedally so do you think that males should be allowed to compete in female sports if they want to then?
I don't think I've heard a convincing reason why a man who has dampen their testosterone below a determined level has an inherent advantage over women.
Some women have elevated testosterone levels but will be able to fight with no problem (as long as they can pass a drug test).
Fallon Fox fought one woman that a reasonable MMA fan would have heard of and she lost via TKO.

It’s not that you haven’t heard a convincing reason. Plenty of people have written about the science. I feel that it more you don’t want to believe it.

@CuriousaboutSamphire
Cracked skills do happen. The Fallon Fox one was a broken orbital I can think of one recent example in a female title fight (I think) happening to Karolina Kowalkiewicz at the hands of Yan Xiaonan.
If you want an example of an actual cracked skull, you have Michael Page vs Cyborg who was left with a literal knee-shaped dent on his head.
The PED question is a real one. I don't think Gabi had ever tested positive (I might be wrong) but she is a biological woman and they can look like her.
The curious thing is that Fallon Fox would never have faced the scrutiny that someone like Gabi Garcia faced. The controversy started because she "came out" about it.
3 women were still happy to fight her and one of them TKO'd her.
Yes, there are gender gaps, but I imagine there is a huge gap between the average woman and the average female MMA fighter too. We are not talking about random allocations here. Fighters can and do refuse fights.

I don't think I've heard a convincing reason why a man who has dampen their testosterone below a determined level has an inherent advantage over women

Well you haven't been listening hard enough.!
Also the level is 5 times the average level of testosterone in a female body. So no f* advantage LOL!

@334bu

*I don't think I've heard a convincing reason why a man who has dampen their testosterone below a determined level has an inherent advantage over women*

Well you haven't been listening hard enough.!
Also the level is 5 times the average level of testosterone in a female body. So no f* advantage LOL!

Hard to listen with fingers in ears singing 'la la la la la'.

Don't worry, the other false equivalences will start to come out now as well now we are in 'outlier' territory.

Yes, there are gender gaps, but I imagine there is a huge gap between the average woman and the average female MMA fighter too. We are not talking about random allocations here. Fighters can and do refuse fights.

Not as big a gap as between the average female MMA fighter and the average male bodied MMA fighter. Stop taking absolute bollocks.

I do wonder, whether the 3% of people who don't see a problem, just don't care as it doesn't affect them personally?

How about if you went for an interview for an office job. There are 2 people on the short list - you and a trans woman. At the final interview, the last test is who can lift the heaviest barbell. That person gets the job. Is that "fair"? I mean, the trans woman has no advantage eh?

@SummerBlondey

I do wonder, whether the 3% of people who don't see a problem, just don't care as it doesn't affect them personally?

How about if you went for an interview for an office job. There are 2 people on the short list - you and a trans woman. At the final interview, the last test is who can lift the heaviest barbell. That person gets the job. Is that "fair"? I mean, the trans woman has no advantage eh?

This may seem a bit far-fetched to some. However, years ago my husband went for an office job. Him against 3 women and he got the job. He wasn't experienced in the area, but it later transpired one of the reasons they hired him was he was much more capable of being able to lift and move heavier items about the office if needed. Male physicality isn't ever irrelevant, even in a general situation.

Scunthorpe I don't think I've ever read such a misinformed post on MN. Ever.

I sincerely hope you do not have a daughter.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Scunthorpe I don't think I've ever read such a misinformed post on MN. Ever.

I sincerely hope you do not have a daughter.

Surely Scunthorpe's post was a parody? Why bring up competitive eating as sport if it wasn't.

Both scunthorpe and dedley seem to be legit posters.

They just don't like women doing (women's) sports. It doesn't put men first.

[quote DedlyMedally]@CuriousaboutSamphire
Cracked skills do happen. The Fallon Fox one was a broken orbital I can think of one recent example in a female title fight (I think) happening to Karolina Kowalkiewicz at the hands of Yan Xiaonan.
If you want an example of an actual cracked skull, you have Michael Page vs Cyborg who was left with a literal knee-shaped dent on his head.
The PED question is a real one. I don't think Gabi had ever tested positive (I might be wrong) but she is a biological woman and they can look like her.
The curious thing is that Fallon Fox would never have faced the scrutiny that someone like Gabi Garcia faced. The controversy started because she "came out" about it.
3 women were still happy to fight her and one of them TKO'd her.
Yes, there are gender gaps, but I imagine there is a huge gap between the average woman and the average female MMA fighter too. We are not talking about random allocations here. Fighters can and do refuse fights.[/quote]
You misunderstood the first part of my post... I didn't say cracked skulls do not happen!

I'm not sure what your point about Garcia is. All the usual misogyny -looks like a man, can't punch, only wins becasue she is so fucking huge, etc etc. But she is female!

Fox was never 'accepted'. The controversy wasn't because of any coming out, but because Fox is male. The fact that Fox being given a fight license was contested, raised such a furore shows that!

And again, nobody is saying that women won't ever beat transwomen.

Not gender. Sex. There are differences in physical perfomance due to the sex of the performer. As usual the differences intra cohort are greater than those between cohorts, but they are naturally occurring and not global. What you call being an outloier is what performers call being suited to a sport.

That you continue to use such weak arguements is quite insulting to the women posting here. Many of whom have a science background, some, like myself, a sport science background. You are pedalling misinformation or are woefully lacking in any real undertstanding of the 'facts' you are positing!

I could be wrong in which case, Scunthorpe, I apologise for laughing at what I assumed was an attempt at parody pointing out three events that may have little impact due to biological advantages.

Fembot123

Bit of an assumption that you’d actually beat them

Dunno about the running (I'm not a natural runner), but I am absolutely in there for county level under-12s Karate.

Sorry, only read about half the thread but has this been posted:
boysvswomen.com/#/

law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

Showing comparisons between the results between high school boy's sport and olympic women's sport. In pretty much every category in every sport the teenage boys outperformed women with years and years of training and olympic qualifications/medals/. Many of the teenage boy performances are better than women's world record performances.

Perhaps those who think that transwomen should be allowed to compete against women just think women don't try hard enough, train hard enough, want to win hard enough . Can't wait for the next olympics where there are likely to be quite a few transwomen competing in women's events - that will be a real eye opener for many.

If this is allowed to continue it will be the end of women's sport and not just at an elite level.

And again, nobody is saying that women won't ever beat transwomen.

this is raised so often as a minimising tactic. There are so few transwomen, it is not like they will dominate women's sport said a male trans poster recently.

It actually doesn't matter if transwomen win a place in the sport or not. They still have the potential to cause physical harm or to cause harm in other ways, including simply taking the position that a women could have been in.

And it doesn't take many transwomen to dominate each sport they compete in to 'dominate' women's sport. We present examples of this all through the thread. It only takes one to win, to receive an award meant to encourage women, to be included in a team taking the place of a female, to receive sponsorship that should be going to a woman or girl.

British kickboxing is creating a focus group to determine how best to integrate transgender people into their sport. Guess who are not allowed to participate? Yup that's right them pesky females.

the-bkc.com/2021/01/23/gender-diversity-in-kickboxing/

This is Laverne Cox (MtF) with Chase Strangio (FtM).

They will both be taking cross-sex hormones. Regardless of Strangio's testosterone levels, does anyone really think Strangio would beat Cox in a fight?

People don't fight by waving bloodwork test results at each other, they fight with their bodies.