To tell you all how much of a crock of shite sleep training is...

[Butusernamessuck]

And how unreasonable it is to propagate that utter torrid hell onto tired and desperate parents.

2 hours into what is labled as "gentle sleep training" with my ebf Velcro baby and my entire family will never be the same.

The baby in question is distraught despite constant physical and verbal reassurance from me. He's vomited all over himself, me, his cot and my bed. 35 minutes after giving up he is still shaking and sobbing (and dry heaving) in between frantic breastfeeds. Hes scratched his face to the point of bleeding and cried himself hoarse.

I was present the whole time. Shhhhing, patting and stroking as per the "suffle" method. Picking up and soothing and putting back down with a kiss and reassurance. He just screamed. And screamed. And screamed.

At the 2 hour mark he threw up and choked on it. Thats when I gave up.

Not, however before deeply traumatising my baby, myself and all my other kids.

He obviously woke them all up. The 5 year old has fallen asleep crying in my bed, the 11 year old stormed off back to bed with headphones after telling me he thinks sleep training is abusive and the 9 year old sat outside my room, shaking the whole time. Once I gave up and begun cleaning up the vomit he asked me if I did that to him as a baby. I told him no, this baby is the only one I've had as a single parent and as a result of the disrupted 3 or 4 hours a night I am really struggling. I tried this out of utter desperation because I had read on here that although it may be a bit hard going, it really works and is torally harmless.

9 year old just sighed and said he doesn't think the baby will forgive me as he couldn't if i did that to him. Hes not sure he can forgive me for doing it to the baby, apparently he didn't think he had a mean mum.

So. My review of sleep training someone who simply cannot rationalise what's happening.. Snake oil bull shit that ruins lives.

If it worked for you whoopie friggin do .. You lucked out .. Implying to parents on their knees with exhaustion that it is a one stop cure all for naughty babies manipulating love and affection is barbaric

Hes finally asleep .. Still making sobbing noises .. Or maybe that's just one of the other kids. Or me.

@aSofaNearYou

Yeah, but you don't park your pram in the road do you? Babies under 6 months should be in the same room as someone else for all sleeps. It reduces SIDS. It really is that simple.

In the same room doesn't have to mean cosleeping and attachment parenting though, does it.

No, is anyone suggesting that? Co sleeping is a choice, like what tog the quilt is or whether you wear pjs to bed. It’s personal.

If someone doesn’t want to co sleep it’s as ok as someone who does.

I’m sorry. You sound like you went through hell. You’re not a “mean” mummy, you’re exhausted and struggling. You need to explain to your 9 year old that you needed to try different things to help the baby sleep as it’s unhealthy for the babies not to sleep. Allowing your other children to weigh in with their opinions on the situation is not going to help you.

Additionally, we did sleep training. We didn’t do it like that though. If he got too distressed we did pick him up. Also, how old was the baby? I don’t believe sleep training works as well for infants under 12 months. We started properly at 14 months and it only took one exhausting night to get him happy in his cot.

Oh I get that, and I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But from my perspective, I see a LOT of content from parents who are big on attachment parenting speaking as though to do anything else is to not understand and neglect your child's needs. I see a lot of pressure there.

I don't think the right answer is to say that any way of parenting is the only way that works - any number of methods work for different people and different children.

@Dontdothis

Hey there OP. I haven’t read all the responses, but I’ve read enough to know I’m not the only one who will being saying this, but I want to add to it: please stop beating yourself up. You sound like an amazing mother, who has raised amazing kids. You made one mistake amid absolutely ridiculous and impossible circumstances: Single handedly caring for young children plus a baby during lock down while home schooling with next to no sleep due to breast fed super attached baby. Wow. I couldn’t do that. Your baby is going to get over this. You clearly have all the instincts and patience needed to heal this singular and momentary bad experience for them. The older two clearly understand, and it’s clear too that you are so sensitive to your kids’ needs that you’re going to be able to fix this with your 5 year old too (I think with kids that age we do often over think things - it is quite likely they will have forgotten much of it already, or soon will). I say this as someone as opposed to sleep training as you; as someone who also did the single parent, cosleeping and BF on demand thing and agrees with all that you have said about sleep training. But I did it with just one kid! In normal times! I cannot fathom how I would have done it in your circumstances. I felt really angry reading your post as it seems that really the big thing here is that you are a victim of lock down (although I have to say, I wouldn’t be able to cope with 3 kids plus baby alone even in the best of times). I know your kids are in school some days, but can they go in for more? Really, being from a single parent household with multiple siblings including a young baby sibling at home really must (and i can tell you in some schools DOES) mean your kids should be able to access keyworker/vulnerable kid school places. I’m not saying your kids are vulnerable. They clearly have an amazing mother. But there are a lot of you at home right now. It’s going to be noisy and, as you say, hard to give everyone the attention they want. Can you make it all better for everyone by asking for more days in school? Seriously there are SAHPs sending their kids in right now if their other parent is a key worker. You and your kids are entitled to more help than this.

Night weaning, from the experience of just 1 baby: tbh I didn’t really try til nearer 12 months. But I got rid of my bed. Then just mattress on the floor with a single mattress for baby next to me (partly because I started putting baby to bed before me and didn’t want to have to worry about them rolling out - they always refused to sleep in their cot). It allowed for more space and less nighttime boob-grab in between sleep cycles. Plus at some point I started offering them my little finger to suck, instead of a boob. Turned out they just wanted to suck not eat, so I think that helped too. But I’m not going to lie. The mattress on the floor was then the arrangement for a good 2 years, but with my periods of sleep getting better and better as each month went by. When they got to 2 they understood “no” when they asked for some 3am boob, and that was the real game changer. If I had to do it again in your position I might try bottle, I think maybe it’s less alluring than boob? But really, I’m clutching at straws there.

Wow thank you so much for your support and kindness. You are so appreciated.

5 year old seems much calmer and when the baby woke from his nap this afternoon we all snuggled in the fort while he had wake up booby (if ypu know, you know). 5 year old was stroking the babys head and saying shhhh baby we're here. Made my bones all spongey!!

Currently big boy goes all week as he got pretty behind.

Middle two go together on mondays then one on Wednesday and one on Friday to try and give them some one on one time with me.

I may have them both go Mondays, Wednesday's and Fridays and we might all come out of this a little less damaged. I feel terrible using places but their diagnoses mean they're vulnerable.. In fact often is kinda leaves us all somewhat vulnerable but thats a whole different thread!

5 year old was stroking the babys head and saying shhhh baby we're here. Made my bones all spongey!!

Well that sounds the perfect way for everyone to reconnect and know, as your 5 year old said precisely: you are all there for each other.

It’s tough and some have been given a lot more crap in this to deal with than others. But it sounds to me like you are an absolutely incredible mum.
Take stock. Be specific about the help you need - including, if you can, from your mum.
But know that you are doing your best, which frankly sounds pretty damn awesome.

You have my sympathies. Easy going baby number 1 was sleep trained without any issues. Then I had velcro baby number 2 and she would scream and scream. Velcro baby number 3 was the worst. At 4 he still sleeps with us. Literally nothing would have made him sleep in his bed. Sleep training doesn't work for many babies. At least you have tried, can rule it out and try a different approach. Or just give up any form of sleep training all together.

Not unreasonable. My experience was much like yours when I tried it with DS 1. By the time DD was born I abandoned the idea of ever 'sleep training'. It basically was upsetting for everyone and didn't work with DS, so with DD I just accepted the lack of sleep and coslept. It was tiring at times but I was so much happier when not trying to solve sleep problems.

@aSofaNearYou

Oh I get that, and I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But from my perspective, I see a LOT of content from parents who are big on attachment parenting speaking as though to do anything else is to not understand and neglect your child's needs. I see a lot of pressure there.

I don't think the right answer is to say that any way of parenting is the only way that works - any number of methods work for different people and different children.

I agree there is elitism on both sides of the coin and all it does is damage everyone in the middle of the two.

@Dontdothis

5 year old was stroking the babys head and saying shhhh baby we're here. Made my bones all spongey!!

Well that sounds the perfect way for everyone to reconnect and know, as your 5 year old said precisely: you are all there for each other.

It’s tough and some have been given a lot more crap in this to deal with than others. But it sounds to me like you are an absolutely incredible mum.
Take stock. Be specific about the help you need - including, if you can, from your mum.
But know that you are doing your best, which frankly sounds pretty damn awesome.

Thank you so much - all this support has been more helpful than I can articulate!

I don't know how we plod along but I spoke to my mum and ex today and they've agreed to help out more around sleep. I feel a lot more on top of things today.

Thank you again xxx

Well everyone I pushed bed time back tonight by nudging the afternoon nap back. We've had a lovely bath, played in the bathroom afterwards (huge room) come downstairs and hes had a cuddle with the older two.

Had both boobs and towards the end of the second one he was still kinda awake and grumpy - I popped him in his bouncer (another thing to get judged on I'm sure) and rocked him a bit whilst shhhhhhing him and .... He went to sleep 🙏🙏🙏🙏😍😍😍😍😍😍😍

OP, I think 10 months is actually about the worst time for sleep training.

I used AP and co-sleeping pretty exclusively for my middle two kids, and I came out of it feeling that they kind of screw mums over (I mean you Dr Sears.) There are some kids who have no issues, but quite a few get so they will not sleep without mum, nursing, and in fact if you don't sleep with them, they will wake up. That's barely sustainable even when you have the help of another person, it's a recipe for not getting enough sleep to cope.

But by the time it gets bad enough to ignore the advice and try sleep training, you are in the period where it becomes really difficult to do it. So you are stuck trying to make do.

What's been most enlightening about trying a different method with my youngest is that I've realised, not only is it better for me, it's actually been a lot better for my child - she's been a more well rested child who sleeps when she's tired and doesn't feel upset if there is not someone with her all the time, which happens at times no matter how you slice it.

Anyway - at 10 months I think you just have to do what you can - I'd think about night weaning if you can, it tends to increase nigh-time sleep periods a lot in babies that age. Kind of the opposite of young infants.

Hurrah!!

Chestnut - interested to know what you did differently with your younger baby as I am expecting DC3. I thought I'd done well with DC2 because he was happy to be put down as a newborn, but in fact he still ended up co sleeping and breastfeeding all the time.

That’s brilliant OP. When my twins were little obviously I couldn’t hold and rock them both at the same time so I got two Baby Bjorn bouncers secondhand (and later sold them for exactly what I paid - bonus!). They’re so easy to bounce, they recline and fold totally flat so you can move them round the house easily.

I used to put them in them and bounce them to sleep then do the same when they woke up in the night. You might find this helps as a routine - one day they just didn’t need it any more but it saved my sanity when things were really bad, they loved those bouncers (used them as seats until they were about 2, I nearly cried when they would no longer stay in them 😂)

@ChestnutStuffing

OP, I think 10 months is actually about the worst time for sleep training.

I used AP and co-sleeping pretty exclusively for my middle two kids, and I came out of it feeling that they kind of screw mums over (I mean you Dr Sears.) There are some kids who have no issues, but quite a few get so they will not sleep without mum, nursing, and in fact if you don't sleep with them, they will wake up. That's barely sustainable even when you have the help of another person, it's a recipe for not getting enough sleep to cope.

But by the time it gets bad enough to ignore the advice and try sleep training, you are in the period where it becomes really difficult to do it. So you are stuck trying to make do.

What's been most enlightening about trying a different method with my youngest is that I've realised, not only is it better for me, it's actually been a lot better for my child - she's been a more well rested child who sleeps when she's tired and doesn't feel upset if there is not someone with her all the time, which happens at times no matter how you slice it.

Anyway - at 10 months I think you just have to do what you can - I'd think about night weaning if you can, it tends to increase nigh-time sleep periods a lot in babies that age. Kind of the opposite of young infants.

I plan to try and night wean after he turns 1. In the mean time my family are going to try and help me nap 3 or 4 times a week.

I'll be doing it much more gently than last night, ill get him using a bottle for water in the day and once hes happy with that I'll only offer that between 3 and 7am and slowly work that back to 11pm :)

@BertieBotts

Hurrah!!

Indeed!!! Hes still flat out!

@SinkGirl

That’s brilliant OP. When my twins were little obviously I couldn’t hold and rock them both at the same time so I got two Baby Bjorn bouncers secondhand (and later sold them for exactly what I paid - bonus!). They’re so easy to bounce, they recline and fold totally flat so you can move them round the house easily.

I used to put them in them and bounce them to sleep then do the same when they woke up in the night. You might find this helps as a routine - one day they just didn’t need it any more but it saved my sanity when things were really bad, they loved those bouncers (used them as seats until they were about 2, I nearly cried when they would no longer stay in them 😂)

Hes still flat out .. I think ive discovered a thing here with this bouncer!!

Ironically it was given to me by a friend who's toddler used it till about 2.5 .. Turns out it was the only place she would sleep hahahah

Some babies don't take to it. Mine didn't. She whipped herself up so much there was no chance of her sleeping. I personally can't leave a baby to cry either, I find it really distressing.

Hope you manage to get some decent sleep

I think a bouncer is a really good way to relax them - bouncing and white noise on loud worked well for us. Hopefully it will continue OP. I would wait until they were fully asleep and then move them to their cots.

And high five - you’re doing an amazing job.

Love the photo, OP, he's beautiful. Isn't it amazing how much we love them when they are fast asleep? I hope you get a good night tonight.

@SinkGirl

I think a bouncer is a really good way to relax them - bouncing and white noise on loud worked well for us. Hopefully it will continue OP. I would wait until they were fully asleep and then move them to their cots.

And high five - you’re doing an amazing job.

I think this is our new set up!!! Just gotta get him up two sets if stairs without waking him up hah

@Apileofballyhoo

Love the photo, OP, he's beautiful. Isn't it amazing how much we love them when they are fast asleep? I hope you get a good night tonight.

Thank you so much - he really is just such a smushy cutie pie. He seems to have all our best bits and a bit more gorgeous for good measure :)

aw op he is a little beauty!
you’re doing a fab job, high 5 supermama x

Did this with my eldest with similar results. Never again!

Tried other stuff as they got older. Never worked.

Now aged 12 and still needs me there at bedtime. Still up with them now! It's exhausting but at least I don't leave them to ball their eyes out. Discovered that they had SEN aged 8.

bawl!