To tell you all how much of a crock of shite sleep training is...

[Butusernamessuck]

And how unreasonable it is to propagate that utter torrid hell onto tired and desperate parents.

2 hours into what is labled as "gentle sleep training" with my ebf Velcro baby and my entire family will never be the same.

The baby in question is distraught despite constant physical and verbal reassurance from me. He's vomited all over himself, me, his cot and my bed. 35 minutes after giving up he is still shaking and sobbing (and dry heaving) in between frantic breastfeeds. Hes scratched his face to the point of bleeding and cried himself hoarse.

I was present the whole time. Shhhhing, patting and stroking as per the "suffle" method. Picking up and soothing and putting back down with a kiss and reassurance. He just screamed. And screamed. And screamed.

At the 2 hour mark he threw up and choked on it. Thats when I gave up.

Not, however before deeply traumatising my baby, myself and all my other kids.

He obviously woke them all up. The 5 year old has fallen asleep crying in my bed, the 11 year old stormed off back to bed with headphones after telling me he thinks sleep training is abusive and the 9 year old sat outside my room, shaking the whole time. Once I gave up and begun cleaning up the vomit he asked me if I did that to him as a baby. I told him no, this baby is the only one I've had as a single parent and as a result of the disrupted 3 or 4 hours a night I am really struggling. I tried this out of utter desperation because I had read on here that although it may be a bit hard going, it really works and is torally harmless.

9 year old just sighed and said he doesn't think the baby will forgive me as he couldn't if i did that to him. Hes not sure he can forgive me for doing it to the baby, apparently he didn't think he had a mean mum.

So. My review of sleep training someone who simply cannot rationalise what's happening.. Snake oil bull shit that ruins lives.

If it worked for you whoopie friggin do .. You lucked out .. Implying to parents on their knees with exhaustion that it is a one stop cure all for naughty babies manipulating love and affection is barbaric

Hes finally asleep .. Still making sobbing noises .. Or maybe that's just one of the other kids. Or me.

Don’t beat yourself up
This didn’t work for you and that’s ok
Didn’t work for my third either
In the end we all got the best sleep when baby and I shared a bed

Turned out he just needed cuddling He’s 11 now and obviously sleeps in his own bed (fortunately lol)

@BertieBotts I think drowsy but awake can work quite well but it only works if you start early, before two months and you use a dummy.

Have a look and you’ll see what they’re about Bertie.

If what you’re doing works for you then you won’t need it but it’s got 100k+ members so they’re offering something people find helpful, in sharp contrast the strong biologically-normal-infant-sleep-is-a-problem culture that dominates in the U.K. and USA.

@AnneLovesGilbert

I hope you’re glad you posted and haven’t taken unsupportive messages to heart too much. You know you’re comfortable with your normal parenting style and that last night wasn’t in keeping with it but came about because you were feeling desperate. You know you won’t do it again and that everyone is okay this morning - please stop beating yourself up. You’ve got your hands full and everyone has shit days. Cherish yourself, your beautiful children and the family you’ve created. Sleep when you can. Things will get easier. They will!

Thank you - we had a slightly fraught morning then we all just had a talk and a hug and then the atmosphere totally changed.

It was a little confronting for the older two just how much their pareny is strugglin. I guess as kids we just assume our parents are ok. They know how deeply I believe in attachment parenting so last nightbwas a massive indication of the struggle I've had over recent weeks.

Being only 11 and 9 ut felt bigger than they knew what to do with. However after a good talk they're assured I will make the other adults aware and get a plan in place to try and mitigate the pressure on me of late.

Now the older two are at their dads gaming, the 5 year old wanted to stay with mummy and baby and what last night taught me is listen when they're talking.

So popcorn is mafe, blanket fort is up and we are just vegging out with YouTube and cuddles.

@BeardyButton

Ya. It’s bs. We tried too. Once. Awful awful awful!!!! I’m not sure I ve forgiven myself for trying it. We stopped when my little boy started to knock his head against the side of the cot in distress.

It must work for some. And I can’t imagine many parents putting up with vomiting in distress... so maybe some babies are more amenable? Or maybe some mothers jst have the gift of doing it ‘right’ in a way we couldn’t. But it’s a no thanks from me.

There must be a huge difference in personalities of children very early on if that method or anything like it works with any child without trauma all round.

@LividLoving

Currently lying next to my ten month old who will only cosleep and contact nap. (Unless he’s at nursery, but they do voodoo...)

Tried sleep training a couple of times and couldn’t bear it after an hour.

So I now spend fourteen hours a day here with him while he sleeps.

Your position sounds horrendously tough and I send solidarity.

Why oh why dont nururies share the voodoo??????

[quote juliainthedeepwater]@Butusernamessuck You sound like a very wise and evolved human - I’m v impressed !

I’ve actually just ordered Lyndsey Hookway’s book on amazon for myself - this thread inspired me to do so!

Link in case useful: ]][/quote]
Bought .. With bells on. Thank you, you blooming marvellous person ❤

@BertieBotts

Sorry, I completely missed the 5yo and AN.

I agree that I would either try Jay Gordon's weaning in the family bed OR start baby off sleeping somewhere else (even just a travel cot in your own room perhaps) and then as they get used to that, give yourself a kind of "curfew" for example midnight, and do whatever it takes to keep him in the cot (pick up put down, repeated breastfeeding, whatever) until midnight, then if he still isn't settling you can bring him into bed. Over time you push the curfew later and later. However be aware most babies and toddlers have a body clock which puts 4am ish at the start of "morning", so unless you're willing to get up at 4am if attempts fail it can be a good time to cut the method and just have an early morning cuddle instead!

Or an alternative to Jay Gordon is the delay method - you need an illuminated clock or watch you can easily see in the dark. Do bedtime as normal. When the baby wakes up you clock the time and for the next 5 minutes you attempt to settle/comfort them in other ways - DS2 would probably tolerate back rubbing for example for a little while, some babies accept a drink of water from a bottle. Once the 5 minutes is up if they are not settling you can feed them.

Over time you can increase the delay up to max 30 minutes. The method I read recommended increasing by 5 minutes each night. I was a bit of a wuss and went for 7 minutes on night 2.

I never really did any of these methods perfectly. They all have dire warnings that a slight chink in consistency and everything will be doomed. It wasn't true - it all helped stretch out what DS2 was used to and helped give me confidence that I did have influence and could cope with a bit of discomfort, and that he could be a bit upset without being full blown distraught. I also felt there were nights where it just didn't make sense to follow a plan - one night his nappy leaked and so by the time I'd changed his entire clothing etc he was so awake I did not fancy sitting down for the long haul in his bedroom.

Anyway, after about a month of an imperfect combination of the curfew and delay method, DS2 sleeps in his own bed until 3.30 some nights, and 6/7am most nights. He has also slept completely through I think 5 nights out of the last 8. Which is a huge improvement considering last Wednesday he'd never slept through the night ever in his life and only woken less than twice on about 2-3 occasions. He is quite a bit older, so I can't say it was definitely down to following any of these methods, but I do think they helped even if it was just in shifting my perspective if that makes sense.

No method of ever trying to transition to "putting down drowsy but awake" ever worked.

This had by far been one of the best replies. Thank you. I will research this as it sounds far more doable especially the first one as early evening to midnight hes pretty good.

Thank you.. More than I can articulate

@SerialNChanger

I think the problem may have been that you were present the whole time. That’s distressing for the baby because he sees you are right there ignoring him, or teasing him with shushing patting etc but not picking him up, especially at 9/10 months which is bad for separation anxiety.

My first DC I coslept with and didn’t get her out of the bed until 4 years old and now at nearly 7 she’s still sleeping on the floor in my room and gets upset if I leave during the night to go to the bathroom and will wake up randomly and call out for me to check that I’m there. I actually think the cosleeping has damaged her sleep.

With my second DC (also ebf) I sleep trained him at 4 months which worked beautifully and he never got distressed like you describe. He did cry the first few nights but it wasn’t traumatic. He now sleeps great. Falls asleep by himself without crying and does 9 hour stretches at 6 months. And he’s still ebf.

I don’t believe in “gentle” sleep training. I think it makes it so much worse because you are prolonging everything and actually preventing them from falling asleep. I also don’t think it’s ideal to wait until after 6 months.

Personally I think we sleep train our babies no matter what we do. We either teach them to fall asleep in bed with us and with a boob in their mouth and then they need those conditions to sleep. Or we teach them to fall asleep alone in their cot and then they need those conditions to sleep.

Very eloquently and kindly put. Thank you. i suspect you're very on the money and this is a status quo I'm in too deep to dramatically change while hes so young.

@NotFabulousDarling

I just wanted to send you an un-mumsnetty hug. Sleep deprivation is awful. You are doing amazing. Your baby sounds very loved by all of you.

Thank you so much - your kindness is hugely welcomed xx

Sorry for all the typos :/

I think we have such an obsession around getting our babies to sleep all night, I've seen posts on here from mothers of 8 week old babies talking about sleep training and in my head I'm like wtf?? It's not natural! Babies and toddlers do wake up, doesn't mean there is something wrong with them, same as co sleeping if it helps you get some sleep what's the issue? I used to co sleep then when I got fed up transitioned him to a bed. Just take some pressure off op, I know it's tough having little sleep but just do what you have to do, you don't have to do cry it out or whatever you read on here. I cuddled my child to sleep till he was 2, i also coslept for a few months, now he trots off to bed aged 3 every single night no issue and sleeps all night.

Anne I completely agree with everything they stand for. It's just the name I can't get past! It's so holier-than-thou.

Sleep training is bollocks OP, well done for packing it in.

Why Love Matters is a great aggregation of all the science on attachment.

Both of mine co-slept for years. DS1 is 8 and has been diagnosed with ASD and ADHD, which explains why he needed comfort. DS2 is 4 and comes through to me every night. It's fine, we all get sleep, everyone's happy.

Also, @BertieBotts recommendation of JayGordon is spot on. He helped me nightwear both DC, and is very gentle/humorous.

Well, yes YABU, because you're shaming others and yourself. Gentle controlled crying worked absolutely fine with my DD and she is now very happy in bed whether she's awake or asleep.

You could equally say attachment parenting doesn't work because it leaves you burnt out and unable to juggle your various responsibilities. I see that pushed on mothers as the ideal, "fix all" far more, as well. Nothing is a fix all, but either could work for different parents.

31FTEngineerM

*Babies died this way.

I would rather be tired than mourning a dead child.*
Babies die when parents roll on them co-sleeping, when a lorry hits their pram on a curb and in the case of one of mine ,when an unvaccinated mother and her baby passes hepatitis to them in the maternity hospital.
Exhausted mothers sometimes smother their kids as well.

@SerialNChanger

We either teach them to fall asleep in bed with us...

This is inaccurate. Co-seeping is a biological imperative for mammals. You can argue that it’s impractical for adult humans who have to go work, want some intimacy, can’t sleep comfortably and so on - that I can accept. But positioning them as two equally artificial, adult-determined options for babies - cot sleeping or cosleeping - makes no sense from a biological and evolutionary point of view.

@habibihabibi but the lorry hitting the pram or the unvaccinated mother aren’t in our control we cannot protect our babies from all others’ actions. Sorry that happened to you.

The rolling over co-sleeping is definitely a risk to consider that’s within your control when deciding to cosleep. Most deaths occur on sofas/armchairs rather than the bed though, if co sleeping is planned it’s an order of magnitude safer.

@habibihabibi

31FTEngineerM

*Babies died this way.

I would rather be tired than mourning a dead child.*
Babies die when parents roll on them co-sleeping, when a lorry hits their pram on a curb and in the case of one of mine ,when an unvaccinated mother and her baby passes hepatitis to them in the maternity hospital.
Exhausted mothers sometimes smother their kids as well.

Yeah, but you don't park your pram in the road do you?

Babies under 6 months should be in the same room as someone else for all sleeps. It reduces SIDS. It really is that simple.

you sound like an amazing mum, and youve had some good advice. if you want to pm though feel free, im a sleep consultant who is pro breastfeeding and co sleeping and also an attachment parent (fed and co slept with all 3 of mine until age 3+ 9yo is still in most nights!) . i can help you (for free) or just talk through your worries. hang in there, they grow up so quick as im sure you know!

@memememe

you sound like an amazing mum, and youve had some good advice. if you want to pm though feel free, im a sleep consultant who is pro breastfeeding and co sleeping and also an attachment parent (fed and co slept with all 3 of mine until age 3+ 9yo is still in most nights!) . i can help you (for free) or just talk through your worries. hang in there, they grow up so quick as im sure you know!

Thank you thia is so generous I'll drop you a PM.

Hey there OP. I haven’t read all the responses, but I’ve read enough to know I’m not the only one who will being saying this, but I want to add to it: please stop beating yourself up. You sound like an amazing mother, who has raised amazing kids. You made one mistake amid absolutely ridiculous and impossible circumstances: Single handedly caring for young children plus a baby during lock down while home schooling with next to no sleep due to breast fed super attached baby. Wow. I couldn’t do that.
Your baby is going to get over this. You clearly have all the instincts and patience needed to heal this singular and momentary bad experience for them. The older two clearly understand, and it’s clear too that you are so sensitive to your kids’ needs that you’re going to be able to fix this with your 5 year old too (I think with kids that age we do often over think things - it is quite likely they will have forgotten much of it already, or soon will). I say this as someone as opposed to sleep training as you; as someone who also did the single parent, cosleeping and BF on demand thing and agrees with all that you have said about sleep training. But I did it with just one kid! In normal times! I cannot fathom how I would have done it in your circumstances.
I felt really angry reading your post as it seems that really the big thing here is that you are a victim of lock down (although I have to say, I wouldn’t be able to cope with 3 kids plus baby alone even in the best of times). I know your kids are in school some days, but can they go in for more? Really, being from a single parent household with multiple siblings including a young baby sibling at home really must (and i can tell you in some schools DOES) mean your kids should be able to access keyworker/vulnerable kid school places. I’m not saying your kids are vulnerable. They clearly have an amazing mother. But there are a lot of you at home right now. It’s going to be noisy and, as you say, hard to give everyone the attention they want. Can you make it all better for everyone by asking for more days in school? Seriously there are SAHPs sending their kids in right now if their other parent is a key worker. You and your kids are entitled to more help than this.

Night weaning, from the experience of just 1 baby: tbh I didn’t really try til nearer 12 months. But I got rid of my bed. Then just mattress on the floor with a single mattress for baby next to me (partly because I started putting baby to bed before me and didn’t want to have to worry about them rolling out - they always refused to sleep in their cot). It allowed for more space and less nighttime boob-grab in between sleep cycles. Plus at some point I started offering them my little finger to suck, instead of a boob. Turned out they just wanted to suck not eat, so I think that helped too. But I’m not going to lie. The mattress on the floor was then the arrangement for a good 2 years, but with my periods of sleep getting better and better as each month went by. When they got to 2 they understood “no” when they asked for some 3am boob, and that was the real game changer. If I had to do it again in your position I might try bottle, I think maybe it’s less alluring than boob? But really, I’m clutching at straws there.

@aSofaNearYou

Well, yes YABU, because you're shaming others and yourself. Gentle controlled crying worked absolutely fine with my DD and she is now very happy in bed whether she's awake or asleep.

You could equally say attachment parenting doesn't work because it leaves you burnt out and unable to juggle your various responsibilities. I see that pushed on mothers as the ideal, "fix all" far more, as well. Nothing is a fix all, but either could work for different parents.

I'm sorry if that's how my post came across.

My post was about the dangers of people posting about the ease of these methods and anyone not achieving them are not trying hard enough or doing it right.

These methods are just as flaky and unreliable as any of the other "one size fits all" nonsense peppered around parenting.

Im aahamed of falling prey to that and straying off my own parenting path.

Yeah, but you don't park your pram in the road do you? Babies under 6 months should be in the same room as someone else for all sleeps. It reduces SIDS. It really is that simple.

In the same room doesn't have to mean cosleeping and attachment parenting though, does it.