To tell you all how much of a crock of shite sleep training is...

[Butusernamessuck]

And how unreasonable it is to propagate that utter torrid hell onto tired and desperate parents.

2 hours into what is labled as "gentle sleep training" with my ebf Velcro baby and my entire family will never be the same.

The baby in question is distraught despite constant physical and verbal reassurance from me. He's vomited all over himself, me, his cot and my bed. 35 minutes after giving up he is still shaking and sobbing (and dry heaving) in between frantic breastfeeds. Hes scratched his face to the point of bleeding and cried himself hoarse.

I was present the whole time. Shhhhing, patting and stroking as per the "suffle" method. Picking up and soothing and putting back down with a kiss and reassurance. He just screamed. And screamed. And screamed.

At the 2 hour mark he threw up and choked on it. Thats when I gave up.

Not, however before deeply traumatising my baby, myself and all my other kids.

He obviously woke them all up. The 5 year old has fallen asleep crying in my bed, the 11 year old stormed off back to bed with headphones after telling me he thinks sleep training is abusive and the 9 year old sat outside my room, shaking the whole time. Once I gave up and begun cleaning up the vomit he asked me if I did that to him as a baby. I told him no, this baby is the only one I've had as a single parent and as a result of the disrupted 3 or 4 hours a night I am really struggling. I tried this out of utter desperation because I had read on here that although it may be a bit hard going, it really works and is torally harmless.

9 year old just sighed and said he doesn't think the baby will forgive me as he couldn't if i did that to him. Hes not sure he can forgive me for doing it to the baby, apparently he didn't think he had a mean mum.

So. My review of sleep training someone who simply cannot rationalise what's happening.. Snake oil bull shit that ruins lives.

If it worked for you whoopie friggin do .. You lucked out .. Implying to parents on their knees with exhaustion that it is a one stop cure all for naughty babies manipulating love and affection is barbaric

Hes finally asleep .. Still making sobbing noises .. Or maybe that's just one of the other kids. Or me.

Thank you OP. I have a 9 month old who will only sleep near me with easy access to boob. I was thinking of doing some kind of sleep training but your post has made me rethink. I will save myself the torture you have endured and just go with it.

@juliainthedeepwater

Ignore the twats OP. This topic always brings out the sociopaths.

You sound amazing. I’m also really struggling with sleep training at the moment. Haven’t had an experience as bad as you but ethically it’s not sitting right with me with my second baby, despite doing “gentle” sleep training on my first with great success.

I’d really recommend looking at Lyndsey Hookway on Instagram. She knows her stuff and completely smashes a load of myths and bullshit commonly spouted about baby sleep/sleep training.

Please don’t beat yourself up. A one off night of trauma will mean nothing against the loving secure compassionate mum you obviously are.

I think it just encoursges people to put others down so that they can excuse their own misgivings. Its fine incan rise above the baiting and bullying if it means I can have this discussion with caring sensible people

I'll check her out thank you so much for the reccomendation.

thebeyondsleeptrainingproject.com/

@Leakyradiator

Hugs to you. I had a screamer for a baby. Like, constant. All day. Constant. Grew out of naps very VERY quickly. Cried and squealed ALL THE TIME. drove me mental. I’ve never heard the shuffle method. But my dc cried till throwing up as well. Then cried some more. And didn’t feed well either. Always fractious. Did grow out of it ( gp said it was colic, tried every remedy under the sun. All complete bollocks. I truly don’t remember when I started putting kids down on their own?? I do remember going in and putting my hand in them to settle them though. Sorry you’re going through this. And in your own please reach out to someone. Friend / family. The father. Health visitor. You’re allowed help with kids. You need a break. Your children will be ok. You’re not a bad mum. Your tired and stressed and stretched to your limit.

Thank you for your post.

I think I'm going to have to sit family down and come up with a plan. Somethings gotta give

@Couchbettato

FWIW sleep training goes against the UNICEF baby friendly practices.

So, I agree with you OP. If a baby is crying it's because it's needs aren't being met. Some babies just have a higher need for physical touch and comfort than others.

In my opinion sleep training only works because it teaches babies that no one will come and meet your needs when you cry, and makes them withdraw.

What you really need OP, is pointing in the right direction for support. If you feel supported, then you'll be able to get through this phase.

Yup. He is a very tactile soul. Brave and adventurous and desperate to keep up with his brothers .. As long as he has some physical contact with one of us .

I hate to think what was going through his mind last night :(

@beckylovescats

Thank you OP. I have a 9 month old who will only sleep near me with easy access to boob. I was thinking of doing some kind of sleep training but your post has made me rethink. I will save myself the torture you have endured and just go with it.

You're welcome. I'm sorry if I upset anyone :( I didn't mean to.

If you and your baby are happy as you are just keep.going :)

[quote AnneLovesGilbert]thebeyondsleeptrainingproject.com/[/quote]
Thank you!!!!

If ive missed anyone offering kind words and support im so sorry.

I hope you know how appreciated you are x

I hope you’re glad you posted and haven’t taken unsupportive messages to heart too much. You know you’re comfortable with your normal parenting style and that last night wasn’t in keeping with it but came about because you were feeling desperate. You know you won’t do it again and that everyone is okay this morning - please stop beating yourself up. You’ve got your hands full and everyone has shit days. Cherish yourself, your beautiful children and the family you’ve created. Sleep when you can. Things will get easier. They will!

Ya. It’s bs. We tried too. Once. Awful awful awful!!!! I’m not sure I ve forgiven myself for trying it. We stopped when my little boy started to knock his head against the side of the cot in distress.

It must work for some. And I can’t imagine many parents putting up with vomiting in distress... so maybe some babies are more amenable? Or maybe some mothers jst have the gift of doing it ‘right’ in a way we couldn’t. But it’s a no thanks from me.

Currently lying next to my ten month old who will only cosleep and contact nap. (Unless he’s at nursery, but they do voodoo...)

Tried sleep training a couple of times and couldn’t bear it after an hour.

So I now spend fourteen hours a day here with him while he sleeps.

Your position sounds horrendously tough and I send solidarity.

@Butusernamessuck You sound like a very wise and evolved human - I’m v impressed !

I’ve actually just ordered Lyndsey Hookway’s book on amazon for myself - this thread inspired me to do so!

Link in case useful: www.amazon.co.uk/Lets-about-familys-sleep-Parents/dp/1780667051/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=lyndsey+hookway&sprefix=lyndsey&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1613216245&sr=8-1

Well if they have already been trained to co-sleep and feed on demand - it is retraining and in every part of life that takes time, pain and effort.
All of ours went from the womb to hospital nursery and straight into own rooms when we got them home. No sleep training needed.

I’m not sure breastfeeding on demand is trained. Also co sleeping. That’s what comes naturally to them. It is the baby led way. You mightn’t agree with it. That’s fine. But your way isn’t necessarily better because it was easier. It’s all a bit of a balance between what is best for baby and family.

@habibihabibi

Well if they have already been trained to co-sleep and feed on demand - it is retraining and in every part of life that takes time, pain and effort. All of ours went from the womb to hospital nursery and straight into own rooms when we got them home. No sleep training needed.

Unfortunately, doing it your way puts babies at higher risk of SIDS, which is something most parents want to avoid, even if it does mean worse sleep for a while.

Butusernamessuck In some ways you’re lucky if the baby will sleep downstairs in the travel cot. Hopefully they’ll mean they’re a bit more flexible in terms of where they sleep (although probably doesn’t feel like that much of a consolation if you’re not getting the sleep at night).

@habibihabibi

Well if they have already been trained to co-sleep and feed on demand - it is retraining and in every part of life that takes time, pain and effort. All of ours went from the womb to hospital nursery and straight into own rooms when we got them home. No sleep training needed.

Babies died this way.

I would rather be tired than mourning a dead child.

Put it behind you and move on. Sounds like a huge drama but when you are sleep deprived , I get it .
It worked for me....but not as a permanent solution , it's up and down a lot those first couple of years . Ds recently went through a really bad time sleeping...and he is 7 years old tomorrow!
Do what works for you but please dont blow it all out of proportion

Sorry, I completely missed the 5yo and AN.

I agree that I would either try Jay Gordon's weaning in the family bed OR start baby off sleeping somewhere else (even just a travel cot in your own room perhaps) and then as they get used to that, give yourself a kind of "curfew" for example midnight, and do whatever it takes to keep him in the cot (pick up put down, repeated breastfeeding, whatever) until midnight, then if he still isn't settling you can bring him into bed. Over time you push the curfew later and later. However be aware most babies and toddlers have a body clock which puts 4am ish at the start of "morning", so unless you're willing to get up at 4am if attempts fail it can be a good time to cut the method and just have an early morning cuddle instead!

Or an alternative to Jay Gordon is the delay method - you need an illuminated clock or watch you can easily see in the dark. Do bedtime as normal. When the baby wakes up you clock the time and for the next 5 minutes you attempt to settle/comfort them in other ways - DS2 would probably tolerate back rubbing for example for a little while, some babies accept a drink of water from a bottle. Once the 5 minutes is up if they are not settling you can feed them.

Over time you can increase the delay up to max 30 minutes. The method I read recommended increasing by 5 minutes each night. I was a bit of a wuss and went for 7 minutes on night 2.

I never really did any of these methods perfectly. They all have dire warnings that a slight chink in consistency and everything will be doomed. It wasn't true - it all helped stretch out what DS2 was used to and helped give me confidence that I did have influence and could cope with a bit of discomfort, and that he could be a bit upset without being full blown distraught. I also felt there were nights where it just didn't make sense to follow a plan - one night his nappy leaked and so by the time I'd changed his entire clothing etc he was so awake I did not fancy sitting down for the long haul in his bedroom.

Anyway, after about a month of an imperfect combination of the curfew and delay method, DS2 sleeps in his own bed until 3.30 some nights, and 6/7am most nights. He has also slept completely through I think 5 nights out of the last 8. Which is a huge improvement considering last Wednesday he'd never slept through the night ever in his life and only woken less than twice on about 2-3 occasions. He is quite a bit older, so I can't say it was definitely down to following any of these methods, but I do think they helped even if it was just in shifting my perspective if that makes sense.

No method of ever trying to transition to "putting down drowsy but awake" ever worked.

I think the problem may have been that you were present the whole time. That’s distressing for the baby because he sees you are right there ignoring him, or teasing him with shushing patting etc but not picking him up, especially at 9/10 months which is bad for separation anxiety.

My first DC I coslept with and didn’t get her out of the bed until 4 years old and now at nearly 7 she’s still sleeping on the floor in my room and gets upset if I leave during the night to go to the bathroom and will wake up randomly and call out for me to check that I’m there. I actually think the cosleeping has damaged her sleep.

With my second DC (also ebf) I sleep trained him at 4 months which worked beautifully and he never got distressed like you describe. He did cry the first few nights but it wasn’t traumatic. He now sleeps great. Falls asleep by himself without crying and does 9 hour stretches at 6 months. And he’s still ebf.

I don’t believe in “gentle” sleep training. I think it makes it so much worse because you are prolonging everything and actually preventing them from falling asleep. I also don’t think it’s ideal to wait until after 6 months.

Personally I think we sleep train our babies no matter what we do. We either teach them to fall asleep in bed with us and with a boob in their mouth and then they need those conditions to sleep. Or we teach them to fall asleep alone in their cot and then they need those conditions to sleep.

I just wanted to send you an un-mumsnetty hug. Sleep deprivation is awful. You are doing amazing. Your baby sounds very loved by all of you.

[quote AnneLovesGilbert]thebeyondsleeptrainingproject.com/[/quote]
This looks really helpful. Thank you.

The Facebook group is fantastic @NotFabulousDarling

Please take a look if you’re on there. Such a reassuring, supportive place in a world of mad ideas about babies and “problems”.

Babies aren’t any different today then they were millennia ago, we just expect them to behave as if they are. A cave age baby in a space age world sums it up.

Sleep training didn't work with DS . At all. I was so desperate and on my knees with lack of sleep and tried everything, even let him cry it out. I hated it. In the end a mum at a baby group suggested taking the sides of his cot (he was 2 at this time) and putting a film on for him to watch. It was like he was a different child, wanting to go to bed. I know the MN concensus on TVs before bed but it totally gave me my sanity back. As he's now nearly 4 he still doesn't sleep through but wearing him out and cutting naps have refined it and at worst he will wake up twice tops. It does get easier just do what is right for you and baby.

I am not a fan of sleep training I must admit but is it just me who finds the name of that group a bit wanky? I just can't bring myself to join it which I know is totally irrational!

I hate all this posturing and pitting parenting practices (aka mums) against each other. Why does it have to be "beyond" sleep training rather than "alternatives to" or whatever?