Renters won't leave the house I'm buying, they 'can't find anywhere suitable'.

[wirldsgonemad]

But thanks to covid, a section 21 means people have 6 months instead of 2 months to vacate and this means I get charged £4,250 extra in stamp duty, plus mortgage application fees and survey of £1k plus my life being on hold for 6 months.

They are fully aware of my position, they know I'm a single mother of 2 small children and they don't give two hoots that they're actions are costing me £5-6k and months of waiting.

God give me strength to get through these next few months without attacking them on a regular basis.

What would you do in my situation???

It's such a common story for tenants to be lied to and for landlords to say they are looking for long-term tenants when they know they will be selling, so there's a good chance the tenants had no idea.

I must admit I’ve never had this happen, in all my years of renting. And I was always sure to find out the LL situation, how long the previous tenants had stayed in the property etc. However where a LL has lied he/she does needs to be held accountable for not declaring pertinent information prior to the AST being signed.

@Needmoresleep

Darelask, you have my sympathy.

I posted up thread that my late mother’s property is tenanted (to help pay for her care when she moved into sheltered accommodation).

The tenant, who at the time of my mother’s death was completely understanding about our situation and promised to be flexible, is now nothing of the sort, even hinting that she won’t leave even when her six months are up.

The infuriating thing is that she is renting it as a second home. She has a perfectly nice home 300 miles away where she spends most of her time.

In the autumn when the second lockdown was threatened we offered to allow her to leave without notice. Yet she believes she is able to regularly commute between the property and her home. And invite family from other parts of the country to join her.

We can’t put it on the open market without vacant possession. We are keen to get things sorted so we can stop paying the expensive retainer to the probate solicitors. So I am trying to borrow enough to buy my brother out and to pay HMRC. The big complication is that if she does not leave when her six months are up, and before ownership transfers to me, the tenancy transfers to me as the new owner, but the S21 does not. I have to start all over again. Perhaps having to own for four months before I can issue a S21, and then six months S21 notice, and then the eviction process proper. And by then the law may well have changed, getting rid of S21s and meaning I can only evict her if I decide to sell the property.

Putting the rent up is also not an option, as the tenant needs to agree to sign a new contract. If they don’t agree the existing terms remain and the tenancy becomes a statutory periodic. Unfortunately our tenant, in return for her stated willingness to be flexible is on a very low rent and so can’t find anything comparable.

It is less difficult for me as my mother lived to a good age. The additional stress caused by a bereavement and complications around mortgage and the need to make provisions for minors must be awful.

This is a completely different situation and is very unfortunate for you and of course I feel for your predicament but if the law is on her side there's isn't mua be you can do apart from waiting it out or possibly paying her off as she does actually have somewhere to live..which I know isn't fair but law isn't always fair it's just sadly what has to happen. I feel for you in your situation if the tenant is being obstinate.

I would double the rent if I could, as the tenant is paying well below market rent. But the law does not allow me to, either now or in the future. Though actually the letting agent is talking about shopping her to the police the next time the tenant uses the property during lockdown, which I assume you would also disapprove of.

If landlord and tenant fail to agree a new contract the existing contract continues on a statutory period basis, at the same rent.

The proposed changes will make life a lot harder for those who want to rent on a temporary basis, such as someone moving into a care home, or wanting it eventually for adult children, or who will be working away from home for a period. Or even someone who moves out of their home and rents it out as an alternative to defaulting on their mortgage. The extension of S21 is complicating probate massively. Hence my sympathy for Darelask. She may not know much about landlord/tenant law but I understand her frustration.

I feel my.tenant is actively taunting me, telling me how much she loves the property, and hopes to stay. I completely understand the need to protect tenants affected by COVID. But not someone who can afford to rent a second home and who is rich enough not to need to work.

If your vendors don’t remove them in time to save stamp duty, drop your offer

@Needmoresleep

Would you side with my tenant as well.

Probate with a tenanted property is extremely stressful, but presumably not uncommon. We rented my mother’s flat out after she had a health crisis, as our hope was that she would be well enough to return one day. The proposed new legislation is likely to make it worse still. Should we have left the property empty?

Yours is different I feel but the other one the pretending to be joking about trebling rent and wishing they could use other illegal means to get them out and basically putting all anger towards the tenants who aren't even at the end of the tenancy yet!

That was a reply to Titus, and yes my situation is similar to Darelask. Hers is more difficult as the death was a surprise, there is a mortgage, and beneficiaries appear to be minors.

@JustLyra I can’t comment on the post you’re referring to as I didn’t see it.

In any case, she was being piled on well before that last post. You cannot continuously attack someone without expecting them to eventually bite.

@SpaceRaiders

We all know you cannot treble a tenants rent! It was a bad joke, she admitted it and apologised. It didn’t stop people piling on abusing her. It was completely uncalled for, you can disagree with someone without abusing someone, which is what quite a number of PP did. Anyway as I predicted, the thread turned into a bun fight.

Lots of people dislike LL I get it, i feel for tenants, I was a tenant for 12 years! However it seems many here will bend over backwards creating hypothetical situations on behalf of a tenant. But also then can’t differentiate between a random poster online who just happens to have a rental property they inherited and their previous dodgy LL who acted inappropriately. Like all sections of society, for every dodgy LL, there are countless tenants who trash properties, refuse to pay their rent, have pets, sublet on Airbnb without consent and those who refuse to vacate until the court orders is and bailiffs are instructed. It’s a horrific situation for anyone to be in, I have seen it first hand.

Do we all know that? I bet a lot of people wouldn’t know that or other rights tenants have. Because let’s face it, rights are only any good if they are easily enforceable. At the end of it landlords are in the more powerful position as they are able to evict tenants for no reason, even if the tenants have legitimate concerns, yes I appreciate it takes a lot of time and money. So no they can’t treble the rent overnight but they can treble it, then evict the tenant using section 21 if they refuse to pay.

I’ve been fortunate not to have had a bad landlord in the time I was renting. In my job I have also seen the impact of nightmare tenants. So no I don’t have some grudge against landlords. Still doesn’t excuse the attitude that tenants are somehow lesser. Even if you are an “accidental landlord” (hate that term, no such thing) you will most likely be in the more comfortable position than your tenants who are unlikely to own any property (cue the posters with niche situations telling me I’m wrong about that).

@SpaceRaiders

We all know you cannot treble a tenants rent! It was a bad joke, she admitted it and apologised. It didn’t stop people piling on abusing her. It was completely uncalled for, you can disagree with someone without abusing someone, which is what quite a number of PP did. Anyway as I predicted, the thread turned into a bun fight.

Lots of people dislike LL I get it, i feel for tenants, I was a tenant for 12 years! However it seems many here will bend over backwards creating hypothetical situations on behalf of a tenant. But also then can’t differentiate between a random poster online who just happens to have a rental property they inherited and their previous dodgy LL who acted inappropriately. Like all sections of society, for every dodgy LL, there are countless tenants who trash properties, refuse to pay their rent, have pets, sublet on Airbnb without consent and those who refuse to vacate until the court orders is and bailiffs are instructed. It’s a horrific situation for anyone to be in, I have seen it first hand.

Firstly I did not pile on or abuse the person! I said they were acting like a vile human and that the action they talked about were nasty. I stand by that completely!
Also I don't believe that they were joking at all...only claimed to be joking once several people told them that it was illegal and they couldn't do it. Then went on to say they wished they could do something illegal which again I don't think was a joke and was again referring to forcing them out by raising rent or by some other means. You believe them obviously but I really don't. There are ways to make it more recognisable as a joke so you can be sure people won't misunderstand. I believe that if majority were patting them on back and saying "well done" or "same here" etc then they would never have pretended they were joking.

@Needmoresleep

I would double the rent if I could, as the tenant is paying well below market rent. But the law does not allow me to, either now or in the future. Though actually the letting agent is talking about shopping her to the police the next time the tenant uses the property during lockdown, which I assume you would also disapprove of.

If landlord and tenant fail to agree a new contract the existing contract continues on a statutory period basis, at the same rent.

The proposed changes will make life a lot harder for those who want to rent on a temporary basis, such as someone moving into a care home, or wanting it eventually for adult children, or who will be working away from home for a period. Or even someone who moves out of their home and rents it out as an alternative to defaulting on their mortgage. The extension of S21 is complicating probate massively. Hence my sympathy for Darelask. She may not know much about landlord/tenant law but I understand her frustration.

I feel my.tenant is actively taunting me, telling me how much she loves the property, and hopes to stay. I completely understand the need to protect tenants affected by COVID. But not someone who can afford to rent a second home and who is rich enough not to need to work.

I wouldn't disagree at all if they are travelling illegally due to Covid restrictions. I'm not sure what the exact law on living between two houses is but I'm sure it's not allowed.

Our current house had tenants in when we viewed it. We made it a condition of sale that the property was vacated before exchange and I did a visit just before exchange to ensure it was empty. Definitely don't complete the sale until they have left. It's 6 months notice at the minute for tenants due to Covid and then there is an eviction ban in place as well at the no so if they refuse to go you wouldn't be able to evict . Maybe negotiate with the vendor a lower asking price due to the increased costs you'll have from waiting

Like all sections of society, for every dodgy LL, there are countless tenants who trash properties, refuse to pay their rent, have pets, sublet on Airbnb without consent and those who refuse to vacate until the court orders is and bailiffs are instructed. It’s a horrific situation for anyone to be in, I have seen it first hand.

No. I disagree. I would say that the number of dodgy and / or useless and / or clueless landlords is probably equal to or more than the number of tenants who cause problems.

The number of rental properties out there which have clearly been poorly maintained and have landlords who don't want to spend money on them is ridiculously high. All you have to do is look at the photos on Rightmove of houses to let in your area, and you'll see a whole host of dated, tired, properties with EPCs showing how poor the house is thermally. It's appalling.

You can tell the ones that are inherited and rented out as they've usually done bugger all to bring them up to date. They probably feel that someone should be grateful to live somewhere with highly-patterned, ancient, carpets, dodgy built-in bedroom furniture and a falling apart kitchen.

At the very least we need licensing for landlords like in Scotland. And for the government to actually support a bill which says that rented properties should be at a habitable standard (the Tories - many of whom are landlords - voted this down).

Tenants are not second class citizens who should be grateful to live in shitty houses / flats. Many people seem to think they should be though. And, to cap it all, they feel like they should be able to turf them out at a moment's notice. Nice.

@TitusPullo Who’s responsibility is it to teach tenants their rights? I’d argue if you’re a tenant and don’t understand your basic rights and responsibilities then you shouldn’t really be a tenant. In all seriousness, if you didn’t read or understand your rights in any other contractual agreement, that’d be no ones fault but your own. This is no different IMO.

I don’t deny that unscrupulous LL have all manner of ways of getting rid of tenants. Perhaps licensing would be better for the industry as a whole but only if tenants can also be issued with similar documentation that attests to their behaviour and willingness to adhere to their obligations and any debts accrued whilst going through the court process be placed on their credit files.

Ooh, have I just been written off as niche?

My experience, mainly in Central London, is that it is very common for tenants to rent because they want the flexibility. Nothing to do with who is ‘more comfortable’. And as for respect, a tenancy is a contract. It is always wise to respect the person you have a legal relationship with. The vast majority of my tenants have been great, and I hope they say the same about me. I am lucky though. Being an experienced landlord means I am braver about buying a tenanted property from probate. But it still keeps me aware at night. In my case certainly, the tenant holds all the cards.

@NoWordForFluffy - I agree with everything you’ve said there.

@SpaceRaiders - do you not see the huge abuse that scheme you are proposing would cause. People unable to find a home because their cards have literally been marked by a landlord on a power trip. And tenancy legislation is long and complex, I don’t expect a tenant to know every right just because they want a roof over their head. I do expect landlords who’ve chosen to make money from renting an asset be aware and respect these rights though, like any business operator. You obviously do not hold tenants in particularly high regard. I see people who want somewhere to live and landlords with the privilege of owning one or more property. And owning property in this country is a privilege, the barriers of entry are very high.

And if anything I am the one being patronised. And expected to act like a concierge service, dealing with each and every small problem. Some tenants , including my problem one, have very unrealistic expectations of landlords. (Indeed with her I am certain she tells everyone she owns the property and almost believes it herself, so I am definitely lesser.)

(Oddly tenants from overseas tend to be less demanding. My lovely Russian tenant sent me a bottle of champagne last week, after I dropped everything to let her in after she had been locked out. I thought that was normal. She thought it exceptional.)

@Needmoresleep - how does your position fall under niche? You are a landlord with more than one property, exactly what I was saying is more likely with landlords.

this sounds odd.
the OP did no real research on what might be the case with sitting tenants, despite having been one herself previously.
and all the professionals involved saw no problem, or did not alert her to possible problems with this situation.
and now she seems to think she will exchange in 6 months time. it could easily be 18 months before the tenants leave.
yet she loves this house and simply must have it. ???
i'm reminded of that old music-hall classic:

oh it really is a very pretty garden....
and with a ladder and some glasses,
you could see to hackney marshes,
if it wasn't for the houses in between.

I am an experienced landlord, which is why I feel able to say that :

1. rental property in probate is a nightmare under current rules. Hence my very real sympathy for Darelask. An executor is the very definition of an accidental landlord.

1. OP should not buy this property. It sounds as if she hasn’t a clue.

Buy a different house

@TitusPullo You missed my point completely. That’s the exact same response that landlords on MN get,“well if you don’t know XYZ then you shouldn’t really be a LL” its ridiculous. If a tenant doesn’t understand complex tenancy law, why should a LL understand the ins and outs of it?!

Again I reiterate, there is no other contractual agreement where a service provider is expected to provide a service FOC for months on end without expectation of payment. Yet where housing is concerned, tenants routinely refuse to vacate and withhold rent until the courts force them out. And they have no obligation to repay any arrears, tenants then move on to the next LL and do the exact same thing thereby making it difficult for other renters.

@TitusPullo I hold my tenants in very high regard, however I’m running a business, I have no qualms with saying that here, as unpopular as that may be. I have been very lucky to have had some lovely long standing tenants who adhere to their contractual obligations, much like I adhere to mine and everything runs smoothly.

I have only ever really had one blip. The agent refused to deal with him as he was very abusive to the staff. We agreed to end the contract mid term, he found another place and thankfully he went on his way.

Cry 🙈🤭

Hang on in there, it will be worth it in the end. They might be struggling themselves so try to be understanding, you will get there in the end, just stay strong 💪🏼

I would find another house.

Yet where housing is concerned, tenants routinely refuse to vacate and withhold rent until the courts force them out. And they have no obligation to repay any arrears, tenants then move on to the next LL and do the exact same thing thereby making it difficult for other renters.

@SpaceRaiders on what planet does this happen?! If tenants stop paying the rent and wait till they are forced out why would they not have to pay the arrears they owe? Of course they would and actually if they stop paying the rent there is an alternative route to take. I'm not sure how it goes or if it's even allowed due to covid as I haven't looked it up, but you would in normal circumstances apply to the high court for a writ, it costs money but is much quicker way to get them out but can only be used if they owe money and it still often takes a long time to get to that poky as you probably have to have a certain amount of arrears before being able to apply for it. It's what the LLs have done on that show you can't pay we take it away or whatever it's called! S red the heck out if renters when that showed on tv but they didn't really explain that it can't just be applied for if you have decent tenants no arrears or actual reason to do it to them. People got so scared because they thought it meant that all LLs could pay to go to the court and get a writ to evict them within 24hrs and when the bailiffs turn up you literally have to pack everything you can take with you right away and move out there and then while they change the locks so you can't return until you arrange to collect the rest of your stuff! It did seem a terrifying prospect but it's just not as simple as they made out on the programme (thank f*!)