Is being shy something that needs to be changed?

[Daydreamermummy]

I've just had my teenagers school report. Its all good. No complaints from subject teachers. His form tutor has only concentrated on him being quiet. Fair enough, he is quiet, so am I. I think she has pushed it too far by saying she is still hoping that she can change this. She said therefore she will be asking him more questions in PSCHE. My older children are all quiet, all hold down jobs etc. AIBU to think that you can't just change someone to not be shy and that it isn't always a negative thing?

[quote Sumwin1]**@BoomBoomsCousin* what are the benefits of being loud? Because I’ve met loud people and they can be negatives too*

“Loose lips sink ships”. There’s some people that are too loud discussing and wanting to know everyone’s business so bloody nosy it’s borderline bad manners (my ex colleague).

I have also met people who are loud and this is mistaken for confidence

Some “loud” people want to be involved in everything! I can assure you depending on the person being loud is not always a positive thing![/quote]
For a start, loud is not the opposite of shy.

But let’s assume there are only the two possibilities - There are negatives to being loud if you go over board in some direction, that’s true. But there are benefits to being loud even if you go overboard.

Even some of the negatives of being overly loud can actually be beneficial in terms of your personal life outcomes. For instance, when loudness is mistaken for confidence - while this can get you into situations that are out of your depth, it’s far more likely to lead to opportunities you gain from that you would not otherwise have access to.

There are negatives to being shy and no benefits.

Better yet to not be shy or loud - just uninhibited by the number of people around, making your decisions on what to say simply on the basis of whether or not they are appropriate to the audience.

@BoomBoomsCousin what are the benefits to being loud? Because being shy isn’t a permanent thing once you get to know some people they are ok!! I’m like like that I won’t necessarily take the lead but I will chat away once I get to know you. I don’t think its fair to assume being shy is a negative thing. Being loud doesn’t mean you are any more confident just because you may have a big gob.

As long as your child knows when they need and should speak up then it is fine.
Sometimes if you are quiet people insist to pressure you or want to speak on your behalf.
It is quite refreshing to know and meet people who are quiet and reserved.
The teacher sounds unskilled.

Being an introvert isn't the same as being shy. Being an introvert is neither a positive or a negative thing. Being shy can however be a limiting quality. It's something I'd want to work of with my child but it's got to be handled carefully and with their agreement same as anything else. It's also important to be clear whether he is a confident and quiet(which is seen as shy), or genuinely shy and potentially lacking in confidence.

[quote Sumwin1]@BoomBoomsCousin what are the benefits to being loud? Because being shy isn’t a permanent thing once you get to know some people they are ok!! I’m like like that I won’t necessarily take the lead but I will chat away once I get to know you. I don’t think its fair to assume being shy is a negative thing. Being loud doesn’t mean you are any more confident just because you may have a big gob.[/quote]
You can write, Sumwin1, so I’m going to assume you can read too and rather than repeat myself I’m going to let you reread my comment where I lay out the case in brief against being either loud or shy, but also point out that loudness gives access to opportunity that shyness doesn’t. If there’s something specific to that claim you take issue with you’ll have to tell me - I can’t guess.

In response to your claim that you’re so nice once someone gets to know you, I’ll point out that I didn’t say that being shy means you aren’t nice. The negative about being shy isn’t so much for other people‘s experience of the shy person (although it can be just as hard work getting past someone’s shyness as it is getting past someone’s loudness to find the nice person beneath), the negative is for the person who is shy - you don’t get the same access to society that people who aren’t shy do. People who aren’t shy don’t have to use that access if they don’t want to but they have it and shy people don’t. That’s a negative for shy people whatever way you try and spin it.

So it makes sense that a teacher concerned with life outcomes as teachers often are, might think this is something that would be a good thing to change if they can (though, as I said initially, I’m unconvinced that the teacher’s plan is a good one).

The benefits of quiet students are not recognised in the auk education system imo. In other countries quietly getting on is seen as a sign of respect to the teacher because they can focus on teaching but here it seems that people moan about low level disruption when they've designed a system that prefers the outgoing who call out, chat Etc

I have been to parents evenings with my kids and told them to ignore the constant "too quiet" observations. Not everyone is "chatty" and being quiet can have good sides like being a good friend through listening. If someone was so quiet they couldn't ask for help then that is a problem but otherwise I think there's nothing to change.

I've always been lead to believe that shyness beyond the age of twenty-one is just rudeness by another name.

What an absolutely appalling thing to teach someone.

@RedGoldAndGreene

The benefits of quiet students are not recognised in the auk education system imo. In other countries quietly getting on is seen as a sign of respect to the teacher because they can focus on teaching but here it seems that people moan about low level disruption when they've designed a system that prefers the outgoing who call out, chat Etc

I have been to parents evenings with my kids and told them to ignore the constant "too quiet" observations. Not everyone is "chatty" and being quiet can have good sides like being a good friend through listening. If someone was so quiet they couldn't ask for help then that is a problem but otherwise I think there's nothing to change.

Of course they are recognised. No one is suggesting that students there is only a choice between too quiet students and too loud students who constantly make pointless interruptions. It is perfectly recognised that some students who are quiet produce very good work. However, it is nearly always the case that even those students would get more out of being able to contribute more effectively to tutorials. Tutorials are meant to be participative. Not chatty, participative. ie contributory, discursive, an exchange of ideas. Towards the end of senior school, this ability should ideally be in place in most students. At university, we need them to be able to do more than "ask for help".

The poster above who noted that there are not really any advantages out of being very shy is correct. There is also a difference between being quiet and being shy. Quiet students are generally able to contribute effectively to tutorials, shy students are very often not able to overcome their shyness at all. Quiet students often make the best, most well thought out contributions, a student too shy to contribute at all obviously does not do that.

I should imagine thats a big drawback in the workplace too and even in the interview process. It will also affect the references that are written for them, if written accurately. Thats not to say that there are no jobs out there for shy people, but I think they are becoming rarer and rarer and I'm a bit shocked that the teacher is being criticised in spotting and trying to correct this in her pupil - if only more teachers did this and encouraged students to learn how to participate through speech.

I was painfully shy at school, would refuse to take part in any school plays/productions (even avoided being part of the choir) I left school still very shy and the lack of confidence in myself stopped me from going to college/university and ultimately impacted on my career direction.

I’ve worked on it over the years and am now happy to get up and talk in front of people, would do all of the things I didn’t want to do when I was at school etc. Can easily strike up a conversation with a stranger which would have filled me with dread.

I do think it held me back - I am very happy with my life now but I do wonder if I missed out on my potential when I was younger by being such an introvert, and ultimately nobody guiding my 11 year old self to be more confident and comfortable in group situations. I was such a bright child but didn’t really achieve what I now know I could have when I was in education, and that was down to my confidence. Your son’s teacher can probably see what he could be capable of and doesn’t want him just getting by in life blending into the background.

@Bl3ss3dm0m yes my son has seen the report as it is emailed to him as well as to me. His tutor has made comments before about him being quiet. She is young and quite loud so I've always put her comments down to her not understanding as she is not quiet herself. She also has called him geeky as he isn't into sports like football and is academic and enjoys reading. He definitely doesn't lack confidence. As I have already said he competes with gymnastics and has done from a young age. He doesn't hide this from anyone. I'm quiet too, I just feel is someone is naturally quiet I don't think they should be made to feel bad for it and as though there is something wrong with them.

@JocastaElastic he definitely isn't rude. He is very polite. I'm very quiet and I don't think anyone could say that about me either. I don't know anyone that is quiet that is rude.

The benefits of quiet students are not recognised in the auk education system imo. In other countries quietly getting on is seen as a sign of respect to the teacher because they can focus on teaching but here it seems that people moan about low level disruption when they've designed a system that prefers the outgoing who call out, chat Etc

You talk about teaching as though it's just lecturing. It's not. You also seem to be conflating chattiness and calling out with contributing to the lesson wnd answering questions.

There are plenty of children who willingly contribute to discussion and answer questions but are not particularly outgoing or chatty. 'Quietly getting on' is certainly appropriate and useful in some lessons or parts of lessons, but it is not what should be happening all the time. It wouldn't be much use in my subject (languages). Sitting writing and doing grammar exercises quietly is not the way to learn a language. Besides, it would be unbelievably boring for the students (and the teacher).

@BoomBoomsCousin I'm not saying there is a benefit to being quiet. I'm saying if someone is naturally quiet is there a need to try and change them or make them feel as though they need to be changed if they are happy as they are? Everyone is different. I'm quiet and I still have friends and a job I love.

His tutor has made comments before about him being quiet. She is young and quite loud so I've always put her comments down to her not understanding as she is not quiet herself.

No, really, she is trying to help him. You yourself seem so invested in the merits of "being quiet" that you are probably passing on this notion to your son. If a teacher is picking up on it its because she is seeing that it is holding him back in some way.

Its so disappointing when children are held back by their environment from developing the skills that will enable them to achieve in the future. I wish there were more teachers like this.

Why are people implying that loud is the opposite of shy? It isn't. It's perfectly possible to be confident or non-shy without being loud! You can even be 'quietly confident'. There might occasionally be benefits to being loud,but there are lots of benefits to being confident or not being shy. But we are all different. Some people are shy, and that's ok, but they will probably benefit from working on trying to be a bit less shy.

And OP, why would you describe a teacher as "loud"?

Do you mean she is audible? Or do you mean she is confident and interacts with the students?

Saying that a teacher is "loud" is actually quite disrespectful. Its a very odd thing to say about a teacher and not a great idea to pass onto your son that its ok to make such personal judgements about teachers either.

@GreenlandTheMovie My son is able to participate, he just isn't loud. Not all of my children are quiet. My older ones are who are adults are quiet like me. 2 have been to uni and now have jobs both working with the public. My son has the confidence to compete in gymnastics. I am quiet and I still believe there is nothing wrong with that. My childrens dad is the complete opposite and an extrovert. I'm quiet, quieter than my son and it certainly hasn't held me back in my workplace.

@GreenlandTheMovie maybe loud wasn't the right word. I'm not very good at describing things. All I meant was she isn't quiet. I wouldn't put someone down for being loud, just like i wouldn't put someone down for being quiet. She isn't my sons teacher so she only sees him at form time. I am only going by what I have been told by other parents. I have never met her. I certainly wouldn't put down a teacher to my son and I have never suggested that I have.

@GreenlandTheMovie I certainly have not held back any of my children. Why do you think quiet people can't achieve? Do you believe all children that are quiet have been held back?

As a teacher it’s frustrating when a bright pupil doesn’t join in class discussions. I remember my report frequently saying this about me!
However, it was the poorer teachers who fixated on this and the better teachers tried to gently encourage. I’m sure this Tutor means well, but they could be having the opposite effect on your DC. From personal experience, it’s demoralising to read about a personality trait in a school report. A good teacher will find ways to engage with a quiet child.
YANBU

[quote Daydreamermummy]@GreenlandTheMovie I certainly have not held back any of my children. Why do you think quiet people can't achieve? Do you believe all children that are quiet have been held back?[/quote]
I do not think that. I just think this teacher is trying to help your son and picking up on something that he doesn't do well and which he could improve. The teacher is only trying to help him.

I'm honestly a bit perplexed as to why you keep using this adjective "quiet" and what you even mean by it. Why is it so important to you and something that you defend so much?

She possibly sees it as a barrier to him being able to achieve / demonstrate his full potential.

I do a lot of work in education and the quiet students can tend to fly under the radar a lot and maybe don't build the connections and networks that other students do and generally struggle to put themselves out there so much.

It can be a problem if they become avoidant of speaking situations...only take the classes that have no presentations...only go to the interviews if they don't have a panel set-up etc. It can become quite limiting if shyness manifests in these ways - life options can become cut off.

[quote Daydreamermummy]@BoomBoomsCousin I'm not saying there is a benefit to being quiet. I'm saying if someone is naturally quiet is there a need to try and change them or make them feel as though they need to be changed if they are happy as they are? Everyone is different. I'm quiet and I still have friends and a job I love.[/quote]
Like a PP I would draw a distinction between being shy and being quiet.

If they are not speaking in class etc because they find it too daunting, then yes, I think there is a point to the teacher mentioning it, at least. (Again, though, really not so sure about their proposed method to tackle it). Because that’s going to limit your DC’s opportunities. It’s a form of mild anxiety and while it won’t have a devastating impact on their life it isn’t necessary and getting over it will give them more choices.

If it’s just that they don’t think it’s worth their time in class, but they are perfectly happy to speak out when they think they have something worth saying in a setting where it’s worth saying it, they aren’t held back by a concern about speaking in public, etc. (and they are reasonably adept at doing so), then I don’t think the concern has merit.

DD (3) is very introvert (both DH & I are also introverts) her playgroup have suggested putting in a referral due to DD not playing with other kids as much as 'normal' and pushing kids away when she needs her own space, she will happily play when she is in the mood to but is happy to do her own thing at other times.

We have declined the offer of a referral as she does not need fixing, she just needs lockdown over so she can find her own happy balance without the ridiculous restrictions in place.

I'm currently (re) reading 'quiet' by Susan Cain, and have her next book 'quiet power' on the bookshelf as well as 'the hidden gifts of the introverted child'. I will not have my DD messed up like I was where I don't really know my authentic self as I've faked extrovert so much for 40 years, and often failed at it making me feel unlikable and a target for bullied leading to really low self-esteem/anxiety/depression.

@GreenlandTheMovie

His tutor has made comments before about him being quiet. She is young and quite loud so I've always put her comments down to her not understanding as she is not quiet herself.

No, really, she is trying to help him. You yourself seem so invested in the merits of "being quiet" that you are probably passing on this notion to your son. If a teacher is picking up on it its because she is seeing that it is holding him back in some way.

Its so disappointing when children are held back by their environment from developing the skills that will enable them to achieve in the future. I wish there were more teachers like this.

Being held back by their environment? You can’t make someone with a personality trait of being quiet change and enforce anything else on them. This would not be fair on the child which would be made out that he isn’t good enough the way he is. You couldn’t as a parent make a child who is more outgoing quiet that is just not possible. OP has said he isn’t shy just quiet. If teachers ask a question directly to him he would answer and not be rude. But he wouldn’t go out of his way to answer a question he knew the answer too. Op has said that her son is an academic child that does well so if he is doing perfectly well now why try and change something that is working well for him? He clearly feels comfortable being quiet, whilst still being able to work in groups and complete work to a high standard. If he wasn’t able to work in groups and was behind academically then perhaps that child would benefit from a bit of help but op has said her son is capable of doing those things

@GreenlandTheMovie his tutor used the word quiet. I don't think my son is shy so what word should I use? I don't want my son to think he needs to be changed.