Whilst Biden and Harris are busy doing their jobs, there's an Impeachment Hearing going on... (#125)

[Roussette]

Previous thread...
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a4145424-Moving-on-its-Biden-Harris-Administration-time-124?msgid=104553726#104553726

Q-Anon.

www.jta.org/quick-reads/nearly-3-in-10-republicans-believe-central-tenet-of-qanon-conspiracy-survey-finds

I'd say something similar has happened with the Conservatives: most of the middle ground was driven out of the party over the nature of Brexit, but Boris Johnson's continued premiership has rather papered over that for most Tory voters. There's been a bizarre and frightening decision by both American and British politicians to embrace really big lies and distortions to appeal to their bases, and then ignore the outcomes because they're confident they won't be held accountable.

Over here, Johnson is savvier than Trump because he's not a true believer, he just needed the Tory hard right to land the top job. Hence he's at least attempting to deal with Covid, rather than carrying on ignoring it and talking up the economy the way his back benchers are demanding. There's a good chance he'll be chucked like May was in favour of someone more to the ERG's liking. (Although they've renamed themselves the Covid Recovery Group now, haven't they? I wonder what they'll call themselves now that we're out of Europe and lockdown easing is starting to be planned in conjunction with vaccine rollout?)

[quote PerkingFaintly]For those interested and who get UK telly, there's a Panorama tonight on "Vaccines: The Disinformation War" (BBC One, Monday 15 February at 19:30 GMT).

It's by Marianna Spring, who specialises in studying disinformation and is usually worth reading, so it might be generally applicable.

Trailer article:
Covid-19: How did a volunteer panel react when we showed them an anti-vax video?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-56047409[/quote]
What I always end up wondering about these anti-vaxxers is, what do they gain? What benefit is there for them in people not getting vaccinated?

I do not credit their motives as being altruistic.

I think the anti-vaxxers are like Trump supporters. Pre-disposed to believing in conspiracy theories. Distrustful of authority. Believing that the world is out to get them. Not wanting to be told what to do.

Andrew Wakefield has a hell of a lot to answer for. His completely discredited "research" provided a hook for many anti-vaxxers to justify their beliefs.

What I always end up wondering about these anti-vaxxers is, what do they gain? What benefit is there for them in people not getting vaccinated?

Well if there is a parasite (for example) that benefits from an unvaccinated population, it would be one mode of reproduction. Much as climate change could be a parasite that makes humans warm the planet for it ...

I do not credit their motives as being altruistic.

Absolutely correct.

I mean, I'm sure some of them are, having been sucked in themselves.

But just to put it in perspective, we know that anti-vaxxing was one of the topics Russian troll-farms chose to amplify long before the Covid came along. It just didn't hit the headlines then the way it does now.

I don't know whether the Russians picked it as merely a random divisive topic (they go for pre-existing divisive topics as easy meat), or whether it was more strategic and they saw anti-vaxxing coming in handy some day. The knowledge that there'd be a pandemic reaching the rich English-speaking world eventually was hardly secret: the Obama White House even prepared a task force in case it happened on Obama's watch.

That's just the Russian behaviour. Like all major events, there are opportunists of all sorts happy to swoop and make the most of it – for as little reward as the joy of having their 15 mins of fame.

@prettybird

I think the anti-vaxxers are like Trump supporters. Pre-disposed to believing in conspiracy theories. Distrustful of authority. Believing that the world is out to get them. Not wanting to be told what to do.

Andrew Wakefield has a hell of a lot to answer for. His completely discredited "research" provided a hook for many anti-vaxxers to justify their beliefs.

Having seen the same user names on here supporting Trump and talking anti lockdown/vaccine/mask rhetoric, I would say that they are the same person entirely.

But just to put it in perspective, we know that anti-vaxxing was one of the topics Russian troll-farms chose to amplify long before the Covid came along. It just didn't hit the headlines then the way it does now.

Which is kind of odd, now, if they want to sell their own vaccine. Unless they want to sell it as "not by big pharma", just "by autocratic regime with no accountability".

Wouldn't 'big pharma' profit more from unvaccinated people than vaccinated ones? Or would they all rely on prayer and quacks?

Talking about parasites, I watched the film this weekend, it was brilliant.

The point of seeding disinformation is to sow confusion and disruption,to undermine certainty and replace it with doubt and distrust. It's very effective. If you can be persuaded to distrust medicine and doctors, who are saving lives in front of your eyes every day, you can be persuaded of anything. Fortunately, there's a 70% take up rate from those offered covid vaccine here in UK.

Given that covid is a made up disease that is not worse than a cold, big pharma profits more from the vaccine.

Unlike the little sugar pills made up from a 10-60 dilution of whatever. Even better if diluted 10-200. Those are the real deal. Really effective and not deceiving the public at all.

What I always end up wondering about these anti-vaxxers is, what do they gain? What benefit is there for them in people not getting vaccinated?

It's hubris on a massive level, a kind of "secret club" of self importance.
It has to start with the belief that the individual is SO important that THE MAN is out to keep them down. I think a lot of conspiracy theories start this way -- the belief that the person knows something everyone else doesn't, which inherently makes them "special."

It used to be just a cult for people who really had no other distinguishing characteristics so this was the only way they could exercise a little personal power; now, not so much.

Talking about parasites, I watched the film this weekend, it was brilliant

Parasite, the Oscar winner?
If so it's an absolute joy isn't it. Just loved it!

Parasite, the Oscar winner?

Yes that one, completely different to what I expected but so clever and unpredictable. We loved it too.

Eric Metaxas struck me as incredibly ignorant of what's actually happening. "It's not like people were beaten to death, it's not like anyone was shot". And when the interviewer says, well actually, he just seems to shrug and say "if you say so, I don't follow it closely"

That's almost verbatim what I've just seen on MN from a poster with a history of Covid conspiracy mongering, who'd varied into US election conspiracy mongering.

1. States factually untrue thing. Maybe claims has been convinced by seeing evidence.
2. Is asked about evidence or shown statement is untrue.
3. Says, "Oh I don't actually know anything."
4. For bonus point: acts martyrish.

It's like they're all reading from the same script.

@PerkingFaintly

Eric Metaxas struck me as incredibly ignorant of what's actually happening. "It's not like people were beaten to death, it's not like anyone was shot". And when the interviewer says, well actually, he just seems to shrug and say "if you say so, I don't follow it closely"

That's almost verbatim what I've just seen on MN from a poster with a history of Covid conspiracy mongering, who'd varied into US election conspiracy mongering.

1. States factually untrue thing. Maybe claims has been convinced by seeing evidence.
2. Is asked about evidence or shown statement is untrue.
3. Says, "Oh I don't actually know anything."
4. For bonus point: acts martyrish.

It's like they're all reading from the same script.

It winds me right up. I know there are topics I am ignorant of. I try to cure that, investigate and read about [topic X] until I am better informed.

What I don't do is say "gather round, dear ones, for I have opinions you need to hear about X"

Ffs.

Oh I know. I'm sure we've all made prats of ourselves holding forth on subjects we don't know enough about I have, but either defending it by sharing the information that has formed our opinion, or accepting we were wrong and learning, are the grown up responses.

There's something really off about the "gather round" approach you so accurately describe – followed by the immediate melting away (without producing evidence or conceding) when challenged.

Presumably to oil off in search of more fertile ground on which to sow their seeds of disinformation.

I know there are topics I am ignorant of

The problem is, that if you don't, then you never ..

investigate and read about [topic X] until I am better informed

And it seems the less you know, the less you realise it. Dunning Kruger and all that.

What is worrying is that as self knowledge decreases, confidence increases. So you end up with Boris and the Boyz in cabinet absolutely self assured they know what they are doing.

I have got my very first "you're blocked" on twitter for telling an antivaxxer to fuck right off.
proud

I don't know about the 'mar his legacy' part--as if there was anything left to spoil.

www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-non-vindication-11613342554

'The Senate failed Saturday to convict Donald Trump on the single House impeachment article of inciting an insurrection, but the 57-43 vote was no vindication. The statements by Senators who voted to acquit make clear that he escaped conviction mainly—perhaps only—because he is no longer President.

Seven Republicans joined every Democrat in the most bipartisan conviction vote in history. While short of the 67 votes needed to convict, most Republicans didn’t defend Mr. Trump’s words or actions on Jan. 6 or his attempts to overturn the election. As we’ve written before, Mr. Trump’s behavior was inexcusable and will mar his legacy for all time.'

@BruceAndNosh

I have got my very first "you're blocked" on twitter for telling an antivaxxer to fuck right off. proud

Twitter is of limited use. Much like FB, it's just to watch the world go past. Lifes too short to engage with people on it.

You need to go where the ads aren't for less bot-driven interaction. Usenet is still there. As is IRC ...

I am using Twitter as an excellent news aggregator.
I only tweet on things where I KNOW I know more than practically anybody else.
So mostly I scroll and check.

BREAKING: Speaker Pelosi announces plans to start an “outside, independent 9/11-type Commission to investigate and report on the facts and causes relating to the January 6, 2021 domestic terrorist attack upon the United States Capitol Complex.”

Good news.

(Reuters) - U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said on Monday lawmakers will establish an outside, independent commission to review the "facts and causes" related to the deadly Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol by supporters of then-President Donald Trump.

Pelosi said in a letter to lawmakers that the commission would be modeled on a similar one convened after the Sept. 11, 2001 attack on Washington and New York. Pelosi said the panel will also look at the "facts and causes relating to the preparedness and response of the United States Capitol Police and other federal, state, and local law enforcement in the National Capitol Region."