Whilst Biden and Harris are busy doing their jobs, there's an Impeachment Hearing going on... (#125)

[Roussette]

Previous thread...
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a4145424-Moving-on-its-Biden-Harris-Administration-time-124?msgid=104553726#104553726

I mean they were there because they felt the election was being stolen from them by people they see as their (political) enemies. Their aim was to stop this (stop the steal), why on earth would they be joyous and peaceful? That doesn't even make sense. They were angry and aggressive and Trump riled them up and told them what to do "go to the Capit and fight like hell"

What an utter waste of time. Trump will be back in 2024

TravellingTilbury I am going to answer you because you addressed me originally.

Yes, of course you can come and post, but be prepared for a different take on it than you have. Politely rebutted of course...

I watched the Rally too. What you 'saw' and what I saw are two totally different things. I watched Rudi Guiliani and Ted Cruz fire up the crowd with fighting talk. Incendiary speech.

Pence is interesting, because some were wondering which way he was going to go but ultimately not surprised
No idea what you mean here. Pence followed the Constitution so do not know what you saying by 'which way he was going to go'.

You have linked to a portion of Trump's speech that was key. It all depends on who you are saying this to doesn't it? He was speaking to a rabble who were beyond desperate to overturn the election result, people that he'd fed lies to for months, so it was lighting the blue touch paper with phrases such as this...

you’ll never take back our country with weakness, you have to show strength and you have to be strong How do you take back something that is not yours without force?
We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing Ditto
Also bear in mind their slogan was 'Stop The Steal' and had been since the Election. How do you 'stop' something that has gone through all the correct processes of jurisdiction without force?

Let's look at your conviction of the steal. Trump lost 59+ cases brought to court, many decided by Judges that he had appointed himself. Are you saying they're all wrong? His back-to-back losses just highlight the depth of his failure to convince judges from all political parties at every level of the US judicial system to undo Biden's win. How do you explain that? Are Republican judges in on it too?
There's no point in me going into detail about your belief that the election was stolen because it wasn't. The facts speak for themselves, see above.

afterwards, as far as I remember, Trump tweeted for the protestors to go home peacefully but it was quickly deleted from the news
No it was not. I've watched all of this wall to wall. I have seen every single tweet of his on the day and after, so it is completely false for you to say this was deleted from the News. I saw that tweet. He told them to go home and then comforted them telling them how special they were about 2 hours after they had stormed the Capitol, and quite possibly after a Capitol police officer had been killed and many others injured.

Anyway, just felt you needed a reply.

but to me, it was obvious that the election as stolen and I thought everyone thought that, even hard core Dem supporters.

Why?
Why did you think it was stolen?
And why did you think even hard core Dems also thought that?

What news sources have you been following?

@TravellingTilbury
I went off to bed last night prepared to think that you were just stirring but now see that you probably really do believe what you say and one thing I do agree with you on is the existence of alternative realities.

Two big examples - you think, and believe many including Dems think the election was stolen based on “evidence” AND that the real perpetrators of the Capital attacks were not true Trump “fans” (of the reality tv sort?) like the ones who gathered peacefully to listen to the peaceful and uplifting words of their leader.

I’m curious, what is the source of your news? And do you question information eg “evidence” of the stolen election?

The sad thing is that right now you may be doing the same as me, shaking your head in disbelief at the person on the other side of reality.

Shame on the US senate. There is clearly no wrongdoing that can't be overlooked. Sexual assault and now inciting a murderous mob

The House Democrats never expected the new evidence to change the minds of the Republican Senators, I don't think that was even their goal. What they have done is got Herrera Beutler's evidence on record, and Trump has agreed it is what happened, that was part of the deal. Any criminal prosecution can now use this evidence.

I think we are going to be seeing a criminal case in the future, with this evidence being key.

Any possibility they might vote on 45 not being able to run again?
If McConnell didn't vote to impeach, supposedly, due to him not being in office, would he vote in favour of barring 45 from running? Or will it end here as far as the Senate is concerned?

I think you have to be terminally naive, uninformed, cloth-eared or possibly incentivised in some way to see Trump’s speeches and rallies as anything but the deliberate and overt rabble rousing and invitations to violence that they are.
As for “stolen election” - well, that’s just stupid.

@Mumisnotmyonlyname
Shame on the senate “Republicans” who acquitted. But the records of the trial and their vote will remain forever.

I think the Dems need to move on and not do the dirty work for the Reps. Let the civil/ criminal cases for other matters against Trump proceed and the inevitable fighting in the GOP.

Lweji

Any possibility they might vote on 45 not being able to run again?
If McConnell didn't vote to impeach, supposedly, due to him not being in office, would he vote in favour of barring 45 from running? Or will it end here as far as the Senate is concerned?

If I'm understanding it correctly, the vote to prevent him running again would have only happened if the majority voted to impeach him, which unfortunately didn't happen.

So the vote to prevent him running can't happen.

The Republicans can vote for a different candidate for 2024 if Trump tries to run, but if they choose someone else, he could run as an independent and split the Republican vote. This would be the Republicans worst fear.

A lot can happen in 4 years. We may see criminal charges soon, which could prevent him running again anyway.

I feel a bit duped and wish I hadn't spent so much time replying to TTilbury.

After I posted I mused on it and her name rang a bell. I lurk on the conspiracy theories threads. This poster is into every conspiracy going, won't name them as maybe that's not fair, needless to say they are plentiful !
Scepticism followed by research on anything is great. Full on conspiracy theory is not. Not to me anyway.

Interesting this morning to listen to the News and how yesterday's results are reported on different news channels.

I find it very difficult to see how someone could claim the whole rally was peaceful when a gallows had been erected outside the Capitol building.

Sorry, my bolds keep failing!

It was clear early on that even though they had their lives threatened on 6 Jan, not enough Republicans would be brave enough to convict him as they are scared of retaliation. It’s easy for us to say convict but look what happened to Pence when he didn’t follow the order of the Mafia boss, Trump. Death threats to himself and his family.

I think there’s a few like those crazy QAnon following senators who genuinely believe he’s innocent but many others would be calculating that there’s probably enough evidence to secure a criminal or bankrupting civil case. A criminal conviction would disbar him from being able to run again. McConnell has fired the starting gun on that one.

JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

I think there’s a few like those crazy QAnon following senators who genuinely believe he’s innocent but many others would be calculating that there’s probably enough evidence to secure a criminal or bankrupting civil case. A criminal conviction would disbar him from being able to run again. McConnell has fired the starting gun on that one.

I agree with this. I think this is why it was so important to get Herrera Beutler's evidence on the record, despite it not looking like it would affect the Senate vote.

A criminal case can use it now and that case will (hopefully) be impartial and bipartisan, unlike the farce we have seen the last 5 days. Certainly jurors will have to be present for all the evidence, and not be allowed to collude with the defence!

@Roussette
I wonder how many decent, normally reasonable thinking people have swallowed these conspiracies? Your family member, next door neighbour, work colleague?

And how do they regard non believers? With the same kind of incredulity and shock that we reserve for them?

Very disturbing indeed.

What would the criminal charge be, if the Herrera Beutler record is so important?

Whatever McConnell is playing at, it is important to remember that he kept the Senate shut down so that Article of Impeachment couldn’t be received & used that as his excuse for voting to acquit.

@Jaichangecentfoisdenom and @FridayNightAtTheBronze
But would a criminal conviction bar him? It may damage his character for some although perhaps still not for his adoring base.

But I think that a criminal conviction does not of itself preclude a person for running for the office of POTUS.

That’s why I thought the impeachment trial for conviction followed by a vote to bar running for office was so important.

*JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

I think there’s a few like those crazy QAnon following senators who genuinely believe he’s innocent but many others would be calculating that there’s probably enough evidence to secure a criminal or bankrupting civil case. A criminal conviction would disbar him from being able to run again. McConnell has fired the starting gun on that one.*

I think that was why he said what he did. The FBI will pursue the case now. The Democrats hold the Presidency now, so it's definitely feasible that Trump will be convicted of something. Let's hope so anyway.

@Roussette

There's a lot of anger about 'caving' on Twitter but I think this rings true... Palmer Report *@PalmerReport* Everyone calm down. While we don’t know why witnesses weren’t called, we know that the Democrats didn’t “cave.” They’re not hapless idiots. They’re savvy fighters, and they must have had a damn good reason for this. Stop blindly attacking them and let this play out.

Not sure how I feel about that. That is exactly the words a qanon type would say about Trump, word for word, when he did something incomprehensible. "Follow the plan".

I think they did the pragmatic thing to avoid getting bogged down in Trump stuff when they need to be running the country. Not sure if that really means that they have a cunning plan for Trump to get his comeuppance. Can only hope.

@GrouchyKiwi

I find it very difficult to see how someone could claim the whole rally was peaceful when a gallows had been erected outside the Capitol building.

Well said GrouchyKiwi It was an out of control, weaponised human hunting pack. People died, and many injured and traumatised. Shame on those who attempt to claim that these events were peaceful.

But I think that a criminal conviction does not of itself preclude a person for running for the office of POTUS.

Okay, that figures actually. But it would potentially make more moderate Republicans less likely to support him.

People died, and many injured and traumatised.
Shame on those who attempt to claim that these events were peaceful.

No one is claiming that they were peaceful. One of Trump's lawyers called for stiff penalties for the rioters. They're saying that Trump wasn't guilty of inciting them.