To ask why religion is declining in Britain

[Jackieweaver2024]

Just that really I would be interested to hear everyone’s opinions?

@Marmunia11975

If you consider yourself a 'good' person then that goodness extends from God. Nowhere else.

Isn't it interesting that when people ask why, for example, Christian priests/nuns steal, beat and rape babies, it's because God gave man free will, including the ability to commit evil acts. However, when people are good, that is only 100% to do with god, even if you're not a believer. It really seems like Christians like to credit god with all the good things in the world but absolve him of any responsibility for the bad, all while he is this omnipotent being. Hmmm 🤔that wouldn't be more hypocrisy from Christians would it?

It seems some people are happy to believe in 'things that go bump in the night' but when anyone mentions religion (especially Christianity) they have a mental meltdown

And exactly the same posters are on both threads saying that they don’t believe in god but they do believe in ghosts yeah?

And exactly the same posters are on both threads saying that they don’t believe in god but they do believe in ghosts yeah?

Do you think maybe they ‘felt’ some kind of sensation which makes then believe ghosts could be real, but they’ve never felt anything to make them believe any of the gods could exist?

@JustAnotherPoster00

"So in your mind fascism = secularism? Quite a leap"

Not really.

No nation in the world is entirely secular. France has banned wearing of religious attires in some places (counter to the principle of allowing religious freedom), India has appeasement politics (personal law board) and caste-based reservation.

There is the danger of militant demand by secularists to ban religion in totality (something counter to the principle of allowing religious freedom in secularism) borne out of resentment for religious institutions. This generally happens when the secular nation is under a dictatorial communist/socialist regime.

There is the danger of violence caused by conflict between different religious groups in a diverse country with followers of a religion feeling victimized by “preferential” treatment given to another religious group (again counter to equal treatment of religion by the state). In short, appeasement politics by so-called secular political parties to gain votes.

The fundamental flaw of secularism, in my opinion is that it has not been implemented in a way that ensures that none of it’s principles are violated. There are many reasons for this but the most profound one is inherent in a democracy. The need for political parties to play along with the sentiments of the people (religious/irreligious) to be successful in a democracy, even when it hampers progress and runs counter to the principles of a secular state.

HTH

Yes, I can't help but snigger at the ghostly experiences of Mumsnetters and the trips to fortune tellers to guide them on whether they should marry Steve or Mike and how many babies they should have.

But when God is mentioned, all hell breaks loose (sorry for pun number two).

My proof is from an experience, well actually several, as well as power of prayer which I've seen in my life.

Any atheists' arguments are purely based on grandiose and unsubstantiated claims.

Also, atheists are showing a non-belief in acknowledging something they don't actually believe in. And what caused good and bad in the first place?

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

The universe began to exist.

The universe has a cause.

And exactly the same posters are on both threads saying that they don’t believe in god but they do believe in ghosts yeah?

..............................................................................................

Do the ghosts introduce themselves by saying: "Hi, I'm Mary the resident ghost?'

Given how different religions have different interpretations of their god and the beliefs are so different surrounding their particular god to a god from a different religions-

I struggle to understand how that concept alone doesn’t give rise to the fact of questioning - if there was a god, which one is it? Each religion will believe that their beliefs are the correct and the ‘true’ beliefs and that other religions are ‘wrong’ or ‘not true’

So where does that leave the other religious gods? Surely it stands to reason that if there was one true god (and each religion believes theirs to be true surely) there are going to be some disappointed people from other religions, when they find out that it wasn’t their god that was true....

From the outsiders point of view, that’s where the questions of logic come in to play.

The only reason the above could be plausible, is if all religions accept that there is a god, but not necessarily their god....

@cathyorclare

"The church follows a programme of non-judgemental welcome to all comers in varied contexts as part of its evangelical mission and has done for years."

I agree.

However I don't see that allowing couples who don't believe in God to take vows in His Name is part of 'mission'. I see it as pointless, meaningless and hypercritcal.

This why the Roman Catholic Church has pre-marriage classes called a 'PreCana', and similar preparation classes occur in Traditional Anglican Churches.

Here couples discuss privately/in groups/with a Priest issues that they may come across when they are married. This tries to ensure that couples are 'on the same page' about finances, pornography, gambling, adultery, childcare, sickness, disablement, in-laws etc etc. They are taught what a Catholic/Christian marriage is about.

From what I have been told by Catholics, some couples drop out when they realise the enormity and seriousness of the decision they are making. Some came with the impression that reciting empty vows will make everything OK and 'love will find a way'.

Judging by the posts on Mumsnet it seems that there are many others whose bubble has popped.

I wasn't talking about 'god' I was talking about Iblis.

What difference does that make?

Accroding to Islam Iblis is a Jinn (Angel) and Jinn were created by God, before God created humans, yet you say Iblis did not exist prior to the creation of Islam. This means God didn't create Jinn, Humans did and that means the whole story comes crashing down.

You then have to apply that logic to all religions.
In Christianity Satan (counterpart of Iblis) was an Angel, who was created by God before humans, yet you've already stated Satan couldn't have existed before humans dreamt him up when founding Christianity. Once again that means God couldn't have created Angels and that Christianity is now founded on a lie.

I don't know Hinduism well enough to say who created what but again nothing could exist until humans made it up and so it too must be founded on fiction.

The some total here is that by applying your logic it is Humankind who created God not God who created Humankind and that is why your original assumption would be unreasonable for a religious person to make.

Because religious institutions rested on their laurels and thought people would still come when when fed a regular diet of hypocrisy and lassaiz faire from the clergy. Meanwhile spiritually starved people turn to all kinds of alternative to fill the need for a community/meaning/solace

@Marmunia11975

Addressing the non-believing community - what is it actually that you're afraid of? That there just might be a God?

No... surely we would be too afraid of going to hell if that was the case!

How was the world created?
A big bang which magically brought life to the world??
Yes it was and science proves this, I cannot comprehend how anyone thinks it is more believable that an imaginary being created the world.

The order and complexity points to a creator.

Quite the opposite actually...

I don't need to prove there is a God as I have had the experiences, so therefore I know of His existence.

I don’t think so!

I just want you to prove there is no God.

Scientists have already proved that, there is no evidence whatsoever that there is a god hence why the number of people who follow Christianity has declined massively in recent years.

So you're contradicting my experience by simply saying.....

I don’t think so!

What a great argument with supporting evidence.

@Buccanarab

" I wasn't talking about 'god' I was talking about Iblis.

What difference does that make?"

I was responding to a poster who postulated that Iblis might be leading us astray from the True Moslem God in order to worship the fake Christian God.

No, I didn't quite get the argument either

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

The universe began to exist.

The universe has a cause.

Yes, and science has a valid and observable explanation as to how that happens. Would you like it explained to you, or would you still prefer to think a 'a wizard did it'?

Where is the proof that a wizard created the universe? I thought it was God.

@Baws
You said
"Scientists have already proved that, there is no evidence whatsoever that there is a god hence why the number of people who follow Christianity has declined massively in recent years."

Yet there is a massively long thread on Mumsnet about posters various experiences with 'ghosts', so they must think there is something unexplained 'out there'?
Why would they think that, if science has disproved the existence of supernatural beings ??

DNA contains complex info—the instructions to form a living creature. And info never comes about by chance - it always comes from a mind. Therefore, DNA proves that God created the first creatures on earth.

Any atheists I have come across recently are a walking bundle of inconsistencies.

@AnitaB888

Again there is no evidence that ghosts exist either. I’m confused as to why you think this is relevant and somehow backs up your views. A thread on MN is not evidence of anything!

Any atheists' arguments are purely based on grandiose and unsubstantiated claims.

Um.....same as religion then?
Atheist don’t really ‘claim’ anything though, do they? They accept the world as it is.

@Marmunia11975

DNA contains complex info—the instructions to form a living creature. And info never comes about by chance - it always comes from a mind. Therefore, DNA proves that God created the first creatures on earth.

I’m sorry but this really isn’t how DNA works! You really have been brainwashed haven’t you. I wouldn’t be surprised if you belonged to one of the more culty religions.

The atheist’s denial of God is an emotional reaction I find, not a logical one. Atheists can never say what was in situ before the 'Big Bang.'

They just quote - 'nothing' but they can't describe the 'nothing'. It's easy for Christians to put on 'atheist' glasses but impossible for atheists/pompous closed-mind people to adopt Christian eyes.

I don't have all the answers, only God does - and I have my experiences as proof. I'm so glad I was brought up in a happy Christian family and it has given me comfort while at relatives' deathbeds knowing.

Yep, I'm a scientologist.

*I was responding to a poster who postulated that Iblis might be leading us astray from the True Moslem God in order to worship the fake Christian God.

No, I didn't quite get the argument either*

You were responding to me.

I was asking @Marmunia11975 how they knew for certain it was the God of their religion that was giving them proof of their existence and not another entity or diety from another.
I used Iblis as an example as I believe in religious circles people are taught that Iblis/Satan/The Devil or whatever you call them will try to lure you away from whatever the "right path" is for that religion.

You then responded that couldn't have been the case because Islam was founded after Christianity and that Iblis didn't exist until Humankind created Islam and I countered countered my post at 13:56.

Marmunia11975 I (and most atheists) don't claim there can't be any kind of god (google Dawkins 7 point scale)

However we do say there is no evidence for one so to pick one at random and 'believe it' is irrational. The only reason you have your god and not some other god is because of where you were born.

Additionally it's quite easy to debunk the most popular religions as they are not internally consistent.