To ask why religion is declining in Britain

[Jackieweaver2024]

Just that really I would be interested to hear everyone’s opinions?

"Firstly you know 'evolution' in the Christian sense was to steal from, then attack and kill anyone who wouldn't change their dirty pagan ways to the good and wholesome Christian one?"

Careful - if you substitute the word 'Christian' for Islam you have one method for the original spread of Islam.

The Muslim community spread through the Middle East through conquest, and the resulting growth of the Muslim state provided the ground in which the recently revealed faith could take root and flourish. The military conquest was inspired by religion, but it was also motivated by greed and politics.

So in the interests of fair play are you going to have a pop at Islam as well?

@AnitaB888

"Firstly you know 'evolution' in the Christian sense was to steal from, then attack and kill anyone who wouldn't change their dirty pagan ways to the good and wholesome Christian one?"

Careful - if you substitute the word 'Christian' for Islam you have one method for the original spread of Islam.

The Muslim community spread through the Middle East through conquest, and the resulting growth of the Muslim state provided the ground in which the recently revealed faith could take root and flourish. The military conquest was inspired by religion, but it was also motivated by greed and politics.

So in the interests of fair play are you going to have a pop at Islam as well?

Copied and pasted straight from the BBC website. Well done.

All you've done is prove that all religions have very shady histories.

Your argument, like @DNHandTNS's earlier one, that other people are doing it too doesn't make it ok for Christians to be doing it

@AnitaB888 I'm not sure what your point is, I was replying to a poster who thinks only Christians should be involved in Christian festivals. As has been pointed out, these Christian festivals were appropriated from non-Christian sources, so when we in the western world from whatever background 'celebrate' them in our own way, we are no more appropriating or hijacking them than the Christians who stole them initially.

Randomly having a 'pop' at Islam would just be odd in this context - when we as a nation also celebrate Ramadan or Eid and Muslims start complaining about non-Muslims doing so, then it might actually be relevant to this particular discussion .

Addressing the non-believing community - what is it actually that you're afraid of? That there just might be a God?

If I thought there might be a god I’d be believing there was a god wouldn’t I?

I don’t get why id be afraid

@Beseigedbykillersquirrels

Oh, you're back, I though you'd left the discussion?

I don't believe in fairies, but I don't get uptight about it and bring all my wrath to a post. If you don't believe in God, don't debate it. Move on to another post and let us enjoy the glory (excuse the pun).

Addressing the non-believing community - what is it actually that you're afraid of? That there just might be a God?

Afraid? Why do you think non-believers are afraid?

I just want you to prove there is no God.

How can anyone prove that something doesn’t exist? It makes no sense.

@Marmunia11975

I don't believe in fairies, but I don't get uptight about it and bring all my wrath to a post. If you don't believe in God, don't debate it. Move on to another post and let us enjoy the glory (excuse the pun).

I dont get uptight about fairies either

Im not debating the existence of god

You asked were people who don’t believe in god afraid that he might exist and i said no

But I appreciate that you didn’t actually want an answer so I won’t reply again

Have a good day

I just want you to prove there is no God.

It's up to those making the claim to provide the evidence.

@Marmunia11975

Addressing the non-believing community - what is it actually that you're afraid of? That there just might be a God?

Why would I be afraid of this? How have you correlated atheism with fear of a god? Atheist are people who have look at all the logic and facts, and deduced there is no biblical (or other) higher power. We fear a Christian God as much as Hindu one or even Zeus or Odin.

How was the world created? A big bang which magically brought life to the world??

It wasn't magic, it was science. Even my 5 year old understands what the Big Bang is, and it makes far FAR more sense than a magic sky-fairy making everything.

The order and complexity points to a creator.

No it doesn't. There is zero evidence for this, especially in a religious sense rather than just a random omnipotent creature shitplopping life all over the universe.

I don't need to prove there is a God as I have had the experiences, so therefore I know of His existence.

That's good for you, that doesn't mean you're right or that children in schools have to learn about a god as if your personal beliefs are the ultimate truth.

I just want you to prove there is no God.

That's not how it works. You cannot prove what doesn't exist. It's like asking someone to prove there's no such thing as fairies, or unicorns. The onus is on the one with the belief to prove it's reality, if they want their beliefs recognised as truth over what is already established as scientifically correct.

Addressing the non-believing community - what is it actually that you're afraid of? That there just might be a God?

I'm not afraid of there being/not being a God. I'm afraid that people have committed and continue to commit unspeakable acts in the name of their God and that despite progressing so much in the past century or so huge chunks of the world still live their lives in accordance with rules, laws and ideas that are at best completed outdated. You'd think I was insane if I said we need to sacrifice someone to the sun God to ensure it rises again tomorrow, but you'll happily follow equally as bizarre rules set out 1500 years before the sacrifice one.

How was the world created?
A big bang which magically brought life to the world??
The order and complexity points to a creator.

It points to something beyond human comprehensive but at least science is trying to understand that.

Religion says it was a God and that's that cause random guy wrote it down 2000 years ago. It's very odd that you'll believe this as truth but then ignore the other bits that were written down that you no longer deem applicable to life e.g. The Bible says God created everything = still true today. The Bible says eating selfish is an abomination = no longer applicable cause we like prawns and lobster now.

I don't need to prove there is a God as I have had the experiences, so therefore I know of His existence.

But how do you know you've got the correct one? There's been literally thousands of God's worshipped on Earth. Loads of them predate Christianity, Islam, Judaism and even Hinduism by thousands of years. What makes you certain you're right to worship your God?

For example if you believe in a Christian God how do you know for certain that Iblis hasn't just tricked you into believing in a Christian God so that you are cast out of the true religion?

@marmunia1195
"I don't believe in fairies, but I don't get uptight about it and bring all my wrath to a post. If you don't believe in God, don't debate it. Move on to another post and let us enjoy the glory (excuse the pun)"

Exactly - an excellent summation.

[quote BrumBoo]@CherryRoulade

Firstly you know 'evolution' in the Christian sense was to steal from, then attack and kill anyone who wouldn't change their dirty pagan ways to the good and wholesome Christian one? Or in the third world you mentioned where those good old white missionaries gave the poor these celebrations by denying food and help until they accepted Jesus.

If you want it to create something else, change the name

Why didn't/doesn't Christianity change the name of Easter, since they stole it to begin with?[/quote]
Yes of course I realise there is some truth in that. Catholic’s suffered terribly because of the lust of Henry V111. I also get the white missionary bit.

Many Christians spread the word through far more biblically based practice though. That included the care of the sick, the injured and dying in the many monastic hospitals that took their healing across the world. The Aga Khan Foundation offers similar charitable assistance to less affluent countries.

That said many, many missionaries today are not white. They are working in their region of origin. They offer schools, hospitals, feeding programmes, contact tracing, water programmes, orphanages, hostage mediation and end of life care. In Malawi, for example the only hospice service is funded and run on a Christian basis.

In the USA Catholic charities run Catholic Charities offer expenditures of between $4.9 billion and $5.4 billion, in education, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, hospitals for the uninsured, legal support, resettlement programmes.

Across the globe Christian charities offer financial support, loans, training to break the cycle of poverty in places as far apart as Ukraine, Sudan and Venezuela.

It’s not all just fairy dust.

No, the Catholic church doesn’t supply contraception; you wouldn’t expect it to given canonical teachings. It does support those affected by HIV AIDS and the Pope does support the use of condoms to save lives. It does offer services to all regardless of religion.

When Christianity takes itself out of the house of lords and heath care and schools and confines itself to its believers rather than trying to dictate to the rest of us, then I think you'll find non believers stop debating it quite quickly.

@buccanarab
"For example if you believe in a Christian God how do you know for certain that Iblis hasn't just tricked you into believing in a Christian God so that you are cast out of the true religion?"

Now that would be difficult as Christianity predates Islam by about 600 years, so it would be reasonable to assume that prior to that Iblis didn't exist?

Well I think there has been a decline in Christian based faith. Not so marked with other religions....

Why? Well where should I start...

Sexist
Homophobic
Abusive
Corrupt
Morally bankrupt

Surprised it's on the decline? Absolutely not!!

God knows.

@porcupinesinthetrough
So how do you think Christianity is "dictating" to you?

If you don't believe in God, don't debate it. Move on to another post and let us enjoy the glory (excuse the pun)"

It's not so simple as that.

I fully support anyone's rights to believe what they like, but wen it impacts me than I take issue with that.

Schools have a duty in law to "lead active worship", there is no such thing as a non faith school in the UK.
Non elected church members sit in parliamant and make decisions regarding law.
The church and its twisted teachings has shaped this patriarchial society, the misogyny and disparity have formed the foundations of a social structure which favours male power.

I can be atheist, but I can't escape the dirty tendrils of the church.

I have every right to debate reigion.

Exactly - an excellent summation.

Shutting down debate over an un-provable belief is not 'excellent'. Religion needs to be debated whilst it's still infiltrates society in the way it does. As has been said several times this isn't about 'personal beliefs', it's about the general population no longer being religious/as religious, and becoming more questioning of a god in general.

There is nothing good or healthy about denying a debate or questioning the huge flaws in a belief or ideology. As religion dwindles, we are still seeing a huge issue in this area of society, which does prove something - 'god' wasn't the problem, they were just a representation of humanity's real issue - a deep need that has us see reality, and be determined to replace it with something completely illogical and intangible to fit our personal wants and needs whilst explaining away our fears about life.

Sorry, you don't get to decide who debates on Mumsnet.
It wouldn't be much of a debate if it were just Christians talking about their beliefs, would it? Do you understand what 'debate' means?
Believing, or not believing, in fairies is a completely ridiculous comparison. It has no effect on anybody else. It's not a belief in a misogynistic, hypocritical, greedy institution which facilitates and covers up horrific abuses of women and children and tells gay people they'll go to hell.

The order and complexity points to a creator.

The watchmaker fallacy

@speakout
'Non elected church members sit in parliamant and make decisions regarding law.'

Agreed, and so do the rest of the non-elected House of Lords.

So is your argument just against the Bishops who sit in the H of L or non-elected persons who happen to be there by accident of birth?

@Besiegedbykillersquirrels

Still here? I thought you'd gone?

"It's not a belief in a misogynistic, hypocritical, greedy institution which facilitates and covers up horrific abuses of women and children and tells gay people they'll go to hell."

What religion is that? ^

Now that would be difficult as Christianity predates Islam by about 600 years, so it would be reasonable to assume that prior to that Iblis didn't exist?

Ah sure, gods have only existed for as long as people have been able to write stories about them. How old would that make your god then? A few thousand years? And if he created everything then you're denying the scientifically proven theory of evolution in favour of a millennia old tale. Wonder if, in thousands of years, people will see all the stories about My Little Ponies and believe them.