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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why religion is declining in Britain

999 replies

Jackieweaver2024 · 09/02/2021 21:45

Just that really I would be interested to hear everyone’s opinions?

OP posts:
lazylinguist · 12/02/2021 17:04

I would certainly never say that intelligent people aren't religious, Bumpsadaisie - there are far too many examples of highly intelligent religious people for that to be at all true. It's a lazy assumption. There are lots of reasons why people are religious which have nothing to do with intelligence.

Yeah, nothing to do with the fact you know your point is wrong. Does somebody without a convenient policy want to do the honours?

Sorry - no polucy here, but I don't see anything wrong with your post, so I can't report it! As far as I can see, while saying a religion is bullshit is a bit blunt and arguably neither terribly tactful nor a very eloquent argument in itself, it's probably not against the Talk guidelines (regardless of which religion it is Grin).

Octane · 12/02/2021 17:06

Judaism has existed from the very first book of the Bible

I think you're struggling with the concept of time.

lazylinguist · 12/02/2021 17:06

And your post says every religion dies out eventually. It hasnt. And wont.

How can you possibly know it won't? I mean... it might not, I suppose. But it probably will, unless we manage to destroy the planet before it does.

lazylinguist · 12/02/2021 17:07

I think you're struggling with the concept of time.

Grin
Viviennemary · 12/02/2021 17:09

Because people are cottoning on that it's probably not going to paradise when you die so if you have a hard life well there's that to look forward to. I'm beginning more and more to feel this is it. It's all we're getting.

lightand · 12/02/2021 17:12

@lazylinguist

And your post says every religion dies out eventually. It hasnt. And wont.

How can you possibly know it won't? I mean... it might not, I suppose. But it probably will, unless we manage to destroy the planet before it does.

Because I am a Christian.

The Bible itself has the beginning, the middle and the end.
So no, Christianity and Judaism will not end.

lazylinguist · 12/02/2021 17:12

I think it's probably easier to deal with that, Viviennemary, if you have been brought up not believing in god or an afterlife. I'm at least a 3rd generation atheist. It must be hard to lose that belief if you've had it since childhood.

GoldenBlue · 12/02/2021 17:13

Because people choose not to believe in an all knowing all powerful being that still allows child abuse to occur

You can't be all knowing, all powerful and all loving and not intervene to protect innocents.

If there is a god then they are either neglectful, unkind, not aware or incapable

Would you allow your child to hurt another child if you knew about it and could intervene?
No you wouldn't if you are a good person

Be proud that you are a better person than god Smile

Free will is not an acceptable argument, take it back to your kid again you still wouldn't let them hurt someone else just because they want to.

The concept of a deity just doesn't work

I'd rather have a Norse or Greek god, full of powerful emotions and completely fallible than our current version of a god. At least I could accept that one of them may not care about innocents

lazylinguist · 12/02/2021 17:16

Because I am a Christian.The Bible itself has the beginning, the middle and the end.
So no, Christianity and Judaism will not end
.

Ah ok. Must be true then. I expect 500 years ago people wouldn't have believed that only about 40% of people in the country would be Christians by now either.

onlychildandhamster · 12/02/2021 17:24

@lazylinguist I think some people want answers. But for myself, its not because I think being religious would give me any answers. I had many positive experiences in church as a child, they are some of my fondest childhood memories. I want my future child to experience the same but I didn't want to belong to a misogynistic religion which would want my Jewish husband to convert so I left. I remember the tipping point was telling a priest in the vatican city during confession that I married a Jew and he told me I was evil and naive and misguided to marry a non catholic (and I would have a ton of problems). I just walked out.

I mean, I could have become atheist after that and actually as a 20 something londoner, it may even have been quite comfortable. But i felt like I was missing out on something that had been a big part of my first 19 years and I wasn't quite sure I could give that up completely esp when i start a family. So I tried to find a religion that was more accepting and modern.

rosetylersbiggun · 12/02/2021 17:36

Christianity has been going for 20 centuries. And Judaism for even longer.

2000 years is a blink of an eye, in historical terms. The idea that a (relatively very young) religion is immortal just because it's lasted a mere couple of millennia is simply not based on logic. Most now-dead ancient religions lasted far longer than Christianity.

The religion of Ancient Egypt lasted for at least three and a half thousand years, that's nearly twice as long as Christianity.

Many indigenous Mesoamerican religions were practised for thousands of years.

Mithraism lasted probably three or four thousand years, if not longer.

Judaism is sort of the exception since Judaism is a religion of the diaspora; most ancient religions died because they came from a specific country or region, and the religion died when that country was conquered or fell. Whereas Jews did not even have their own country at all until 1948 and most Jews don't live in Israel. Plus Judaism is considered an ethnicity as well as a religion, and there are very concerted efforts made to ensure the continued existence of Judaism and to protect against dangers. But Judaism will either die or evolve into something else too, in the passage of time.

All religions eventually die out, or evolve and aggregate (as older forms of paganism did) into new religions.

The Bible itself has the beginning, the middle and the end. So no, Christianity and Judaism will not end.

Those two sentences do not follow on from each other. The Bible is just a book, a book lots of people have projected great meaning onto, but still just a book. Most books have a beginning, middle and end, that's literally the definition of a book. You think dead religions didn't also have their own religious texts?

Christianity might still exist in two thousand years. It's very unlikely but religions have lasted that long before. In ten thousand years? Not a chance.

lazylinguist · 12/02/2021 17:48

onlychiodandhamster - that all sounds very understandable.

The only time I was ever even vaguely 'tempted' by religion was when I worked at a Catholic school, but it kind of attracted me and appalled me in equal measure. The external aesthetic and cultural trappings and the sense of belonging to a club attracted me, but the acual beliefs did not, especially when I heard staff on various occasions announcing to the kids in assembly the number of 'babies that were murdered' each year (i.e. abortions). Particularly hypocritical, bearing in mind the atrocities that took place in those homes for unmarried mothers.

ConsuelaHammock · 12/02/2021 18:03

The wealthier a country becomes the less it relies on religion . I think it’s very closely tied to GDP .

Brainwave89 · 12/02/2021 18:19

I would consider myself as a person of faith, and some of the research does point to the majority of people still believing in some form of faith or God. For me the challenge is with established religious groupings. Both the Catholic and CoE churches have had major issues with covering up sexual abuse and in the shameful treatment of mothers who were not married. having seen some of the current enquiry output on both of these documents I would conclude that neither of these churches has any rights to exert moral leadership and hence I would struggle to see what I would gain from attending. A number of others I think feel the same.

Brainwave89 · 12/02/2021 18:25

I would also add on areas such as the rights of women and gay rights, there is still some unbelievably outdated views expressed by religious groups. Many CofE Churches still have a right to refuse female vicars and their ministry. Gay people can still not marry in Church and gay people can often not fully participate in congregations. Again why would you join such an organisation?

MissingLinker · 12/02/2021 18:32

*Because I am a Christian.

The Bible itself has the beginning, the middle and the end.
So no, Christianity and Judaism will not end.*

With comments like this, it's no wonder people feel comfortable mocking religion.
The beginning, the middle and the end of what, exactly?
The earth is billions of years old. Homo Sapiens are at least 200,000 years old. The earliest known complex civilisation (Sumer) is 5000 years old.
So what beginning is the Bible documenting?

lightand · 12/02/2021 18:57

So what beginning is the Bible documenting?

Read it for yourself.
Genesis chapter 1

onlychildandhamster · 12/02/2021 19:06

@lightand God didn't create the word in 6 days. Orthodox Judaism and Mainstream Christian denominations i.e. Catholic Church and C of E hold that evolution is not incompatible with religious teachings. which must mean that Genesis is a metaphor rather than being a literal description of what happened.

So the earth is billions of years old and you can be religious while still not rejecting scientific fact.

ginandbearit · 12/02/2021 19:16

Hello god ..while you're..er ..if you're there...
Spina Bifida? Cystic Fibrosis?
A low move I know but I thought we'd start with the easy ones ...

lightand · 12/02/2021 19:22

@ginandbearit

Hello god ..while you're..er ..if you're there... Spina Bifida? Cystic Fibrosis? A low move I know but I thought we'd start with the easy ones ...
Where do you get your ideas about what God is like, from? The Bible, or elsewhere?
lightand · 12/02/2021 19:24

Just because a person, any person, does not like what is in the Bible, does not mean that it is not true.

Just because a person, any person, does not like the sound of what God is like, or what will happen, does not mean it is not true.

Just because a person does not like what happens in the world, does not mean that it is all not true.

lightand · 12/02/2021 19:25

[quote onlychildandhamster]@lightand God didn't create the word in 6 days. Orthodox Judaism and Mainstream Christian denominations i.e. Catholic Church and C of E hold that evolution is not incompatible with religious teachings. which must mean that Genesis is a metaphor rather than being a literal description of what happened.

So the earth is billions of years old and you can be religious while still not rejecting scientific fact.[/quote]
You are allowed to believe what you like.

caringcarer · 12/02/2021 19:27

Are you sure religion is in decline in UK? Christianity might be on the decline but Islam does not seem to be declining in UK.

CSIblonde · 12/02/2021 19:33

Because in a scientific & tech advanced age we don't have blind belief in what can't be proved by scientific evidence & cold hard facts . And people have a wider range of emotional crutches available to them now. The systemic abuse of children & the abuse of young women who were pregnant outside of marriage by Nuns who sold their children hasn't helped either. My DM was bought via a church adoption agency. No vetting, no follow up. They could only afford it as their Dr gave them money after 7 miscarriages. It was not a happy adoption. I think anyone who enters the Church & will be around vulnerable people should have a mandatory psych evaluation .

MissingLinker · 12/02/2021 19:37

@lightand

So what beginning is the Bible documenting?

Read it for yourself.
Genesis chapter 1

I'm quite familiar with the Bible, thank you. Which is why I'm quite aware that it's pretty light on information concerning evolution. And dinosaurs. And just a teensy bit off with it's timescales. So, I'm asking again: A book which was written over 2000 years ago, by various human beings, before being heavily edited in the Byzantium period, much of whose claims are completely incompatible with science...

How does the Bible prove that Christianity and Judaism will never die out?