Midwives told to stop using terms such as 'breastfeeding' and 'breastmilk'

[MissMoped]

because it’s not gender inclusive language, I believe with particular reference to the transexual debate.

This is at Brighton and Sussex nhs trust btw, good to know NHS money is being spent wisely btw, poring over the “incorrect” use of language.

The word “mother” apparently should not be used on its own; instead “mother or birthing parent” (um, isn’t that a mother?).

Breast milk and breastfeeding is to be replace by “breast/chest milk” or “milk from the feeding parent”. “Woman” should be replaced with “woman or person”.

Gobsmacked.

@merrymouse

There’s really no need to be so hostile.

If you want politeness, please don’t say that posters standing up for women are privileged.

My impression is that you haven’t thought much about this subject and are therefore speaking from a disadvantaged position - that’s fine - lots of people haven’t thought about this. (The Fausto sterling stat is a bit of a give away - it’s often incorrectly used, but how would you know that?)

However please don’t assume that other posters are speaking from a position of prejudice rather than experience and knowledge.

@merrymouse

Are you honestly telling me that the majority of the posters supporting your position on the thread are speaking from experience and knowledge? You’ve done research, but many are coming from a position of prejudice and ignorance. As rights are fought for, there are always others putting up road knocks, afraid of their rights being taken away by equality.

I think an open discussion is important to understanding. I’m certainly going to read up on this more now, but we can’t ignore that trans people need to be fully included in society. I fully expect that the media reporting is your usual right wing scaremongering and that the reality is respect for transmen and non binary patients alongside respect for cis-women.

borntobequiet, thanks for making me smile, but I bioomin hope not - I am 62, had my last period 7 years ago, not had sex for even longer, and my last child will be 33 this year, and I don't want God to impregnate this 62 year old woman...

Personally, I feel we are talking about a really small group of transmen who give birth. On an individual basis, they should be treated with politeness and respect - everyone should. If numbers were significant, this might be an issue. But surely the numbers are so small, so why rewrite all the literature and department name to be inclusive to so few? Something else must be driving this.

So because a woman didn't want a trans woman on the ward with her as she thought men were out to kill her, that means in this situation (what the thread is about, as in preferred terms used for each individual) the preferred terms won't happen as transphobic or something?
That's a bit of a leap

Something else must be driving this

Such as?

You’ve done research, but many are coming from a position of prejudice and ignorance

I think you'll find most of us on here have done plenty of research. Not that we need to to object to the removal of the use of the words we have always used to describe ourselves by stealth.

We are conditioned, as women, to be kind.

This does not extend to accepting that anyone can identify into womanhood including cross dressers who like to dress as a woman only on certain days of the week.

It does not extend to the erasure of the language we need to protect ourselves from sex discrimination that we have experienced and women before us have fought for.

We say no. This is our right. It is not bigoted to be concerned about these things.

Are you honestly telling me that the majority of the posters supporting your position on the thread are speaking from experience and knowledge?

Yes. This is 'Mumsnet'.

I’m certainly going to read up on this more now, but we can’t ignore that trans people need to be fully included in society.

Yes, everyone should be fully included in society. That is what having human rights means.

However, you said earlier that 'transexual' is old fashioned. I think it was just a specific way of describing a group of people who need particular rights.

'Trans' is a vague term that includes people who have had full surgery, and potentially in Scottish Law, men dressing up for the Rocky Horror Show. Anyone can be trans, so no-one is trans. Anyone can be female so nobody is female.

You cannot enforce human rights if you can't explain whose rights you are defending.

Regarding sex discrimination it should say that women before us have fought against.

Are you honestly telling me that the majority of the posters supporting your position on the thread are speaking from experience and knowledge?

Yes. This is 'Mumsnet'.

Um.... what has that got to do with anything lol

@merrymouse transsexual has been out of favour for many years as it is considered derogatory. Possibly due to the shortening to tranny. I certainly was taught that on ally training and in what I’ve read online.

Sorry, bold fail will try again

Are you honestly telling me that the majority of the posters supporting your position on the thread are speaking from experience and knowledge?

Yes. This is 'Mumsnet'

Um.... what has that got to do with anything lol

Um.... what has that got to do with anything lol

Well we all know that you must be female to bear a child for starters. The clue's in the name!

@Terranean

If I read the document correctly, it says that 'the language will be taliored to suit each individual' on a one to one, but for general purpose the alternatives are given as the additive language.

We all want all mothers of whatever gender to be care for as close to their wishes as possible.

The trick is that after a while the additive language will take over. It is like grooming, a little at a time until it is normalised.

On the doc: The British Medical Association recommends “pregnant people” instead of “expectant mothers”.'

It also says on the document that they are 'promoting the additive use of gender-neutral language in traditionally woman-centric movements (birth and reproductive justice) because doing so disrupts those systems and supports gender liberation"

It has an impact on women not so keen on being known as ‘birthing parent’. So there is an agenda that goes beyond making a few trans masculine happy.

Yep exactly

Maybe we should be lobbying for a name change then. Not very inclusive to the non-mothers reading the public forum.

Throws grenade and runs away

transsexual has been out of favour for many years as it is considered derogatory

That depends whose twitter account you read.

I'm not sure what 'ally' training is, but if they also taught you about the dodgy intersex statistic, it's likely that they there weren't representing the full spectrum of opinion.

@Mockolate

But I am a she, I produce milk from my breasts and when on a labour ward I expect to be treated as my identity which is female!!!!

Yes, which is why it says that the language will be taliored to suit each individual.
So they're not forcing you to be called something you're not.
You'd have your preferred terms. just like trans men would.
So there's no reason not to expect appropriate language round you?

have you ever been in a hospital? Busy maternity ward? Midwives, doctors and nurses whizzing about all over the place - my midwife was looking after someone else at the same time as my last delivery - thankfully I was only in there for a couple of hours (only just made it in and I didn't want to stay).

I think it puts rather an unfair load on them to have to remember each individual patients pronouns and special terms like chestfeeding and other adjustments they will be expected to make.

All this will be done with the threat of disciplinary action if they slip up - accidentally using the wrong words for a particular patient (as per policy) and in some hospital trusts, prosecution and a big fine.

I'd much rather the midwives were allowed to get on with their jobs rather than being forced to fundamentally change their language and worry about misgendering rather than missing an important health issue for the baby.

Please don’t use the word cis woman user

It’s rude and demeaning

We are women

Um.... what has that got to do with anything lol

Scroll up and look at the top of the page. Second word conception, third word pregnancy.

@littlbrowndog

Please don’t use the word cis woman user

It’s rude and demeaning

We are women

For the love of god. I was using it to differentiate from transwomen for the clarity of my point. Surely that was obvious?

@WinterIsGone something else must be driving this

The 2 midwives who work for the Trust, who are “non binary” and who have shouted the loudest (or certainly louder than BAME women, gay women, asylum seeker women, teenage mothers, women fleeing domestic violence). Fuck women being left alone in labour or discharged home inappropriately early. Fuck women needing actual breastfeeding support. There isn’t money to provide them with midwives. But there is money for 2 midwives to spend their days in an office writing nonsense.

@merrymouse

transsexual has been out of favour for many years as it is considered derogatory

That depends whose twitter account you read.

I'm not sure what 'ally' training is, but if they also taught you about the dodgy intersex statistic, it's likely that they there weren't representing the full spectrum of opinion.

Some quick research should inform you. Google is free and widely available

Maybe we should be lobbying for a name change then. Not very inclusive to the non-mothers reading the public forum.

I don't know whether the founders have ever considered a different name, but the content on the site is undeniably aimed at mothers - the people who give birth, breastfeed etc. etc, regardless of what kind of relationship they are in.

I don't know what brought you here, but I originally used this site many, many years ago to get breast feeding support. There are no comparable alternatives.

• Maybe we should be lobbying for a name change then. Not very inclusive to the non-mothers reading the public forum.

But you see, it actually is inclusive, (anyone is welcome, who can abide by its guidelines) while retaining a name that represents its primary demographic.

@merrymouse

transsexual has been out of favour for many years as it is considered derogatory

That depends whose twitter account you read.

I'm not sure what 'ally' training is, but if they also taught you about the dodgy intersex statistic, it's likely that they there weren't representing the full spectrum of opinion.

Anyway, my statistic may be not up to date or does not show the whole picture but it was taught as part of my science degree, which looking back is probably why it’s now out of date.😉

It's ridiculous. YANBU.