To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

The person who as previously talked about the bullying they experienced nevertheless thinks that can have no bearing on thier transition

The relevant passage from CEDAW on the latest progress report from Portugal

"2. Information before the Committee indicates that legislation prohibiting sex- based discrimination has been superseded by gender-neutral legislation and policies and measures to address discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. Please provide information about the effects of that approach on the recognition of de facto discrimination against women, and indicate the measures taken to promote substantive equality between women and men, in accordance with the State party’s obligations under articles 1 and 2 of the Convention and in line with target 5.1 of the Sustainable Development Goals, to end all forms of discrimination against all women and girls everywhere, and indicator 5.1.1. Please inform the Committee about measures to develop gender impact assessments for legislation and to what extent the outcomes of those assessments have led to amendments to legislation under consideration. Please provide information on legislative provisions recognizing discrimination against women by association and intersecting and multiple forms of discrimination against women and on measures to redress multiple and intersecting forms of discrimination, in particular against Roma women, migrant, refugee and asylum-seeking women, women with disabilities, older women and rural women. Please describe the measures taken to identify and eliminate indirect discrimination based on sex (para. 3)."

digitallibrary.un.org/record/3895562?ln=en&fbclid=IwAR0pCSEpaFzLhonRfSmpRiOeXdSgNMweyGtj2bXJAEH47LES2kMWOgeMrvU

That is why I post here. So at the very least the casual reader will see many of these 'facts' are disputed and some are without any foundation at all.

A bit like many TRA "facts".

Yes, I feel I have one. I’m female sex but feel like a woman. It’s difficult to quantity and outline what it means to me to be a woman, it differs for everyone, but I know I feel I am one.

I have friends who are biologically male but also feel they are women so they very clearly have a strong gender identity. I also have friends who are biologically female and feel they are men (in my eyes they are men, same with my lady friends who are male).

I also have three friendS who are female biologically but who don’t feel strongly that they are a woman or a man, so they prefers the pronouns ‘they’.

It doesn’t feel difficult or strange to me. If I preferred to be called ‘he’ or ‘they’ it would be more convenient for that info to be listed so that people getting in touch knew without having to be corrected.

If it doesn’t matter to you or most of your coworkers that’s great, it’s nice that as you’re in the ‘norm’ these issues aren’t ones you consider day to day, just like as a white woman I don’t have to consider racism day to day unlike my DH, or as a straight person I’ve never had or chosen to ‘come out’. It matters to some a great deal and costs me nothing to use their preferred pronouns. Not really seeing the issue personally!

@jj1968 pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27045261/

And on the high sex offending rates of trans people in prisons.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg

Having worked in a male prison I find it very telling that for all of the focus on MN on ‘bringing to light’ assaults on cis woman by trans women, there’s rarely much discourse around the assaults endured by trans women in male prisons. The trans women I worked alongside in various prisons endured an incredible amount of emotional and physical abuse.

For those who haven’t followed links to any of the evidence provided here, I can heartily recommend it so you can see what yourself what they actually say.

For example, the one on intersex and trans concludes that what people with differences of sexual development (DSDs, what used to be called intersex) and trans people have in common is that both groups require medically necessary treatment, autonomy and the ability to consent to their treatment.

Well, duh. Which groups of people don’t need that?

Sidebar: point one on medical necessity is a tricky one, because medicalising being trans is a no no and is transphobic. You don’t need a diagnosis to of dysphoria to be trans, and it is “medical gatekeeping” to require this. However, it is an urgent necessity for all trans people to have prompt and extensive access to all healthcare that they require for something that is definitely not a health issue...

Having worked in a male prison I find it very telling that for all of the focus on MN on ‘bringing to light’ assaults on cis woman by trans women, there’s rarely much discourse around the assaults endured by trans women in male prisons. The trans women I worked alongside in various prisons endured an incredible amount of emotional and physical abuse.

In the feminist section we'll be looking at it from a feminist angle. What happens to transwomen in prisons isn't a feminist issue.

Yes, I feel I have one. I’m female sex but feel like a woman. It’s difficult to quantity and outline what it means to me to be a woman, it differs for everyone, but I know I feel I am one.

You have known you were female since you first became aware that there were two types of humans, male and female. You can't separate that out objectively.

I have friends who are biologically male but also feel they are women so they very clearly have a strong gender identity. I also have friends who are biologically female and feel they are men (in my eyes they are men, same with my lady friends who are male).

They cannot know that they are the opposite sex, woman means adult female, not a mystical essence that a male can have. This is an ideological belief.

I also have three friendS who are female biologically but who don’t feel strongly that they are a woman or a man, so they prefers the pronouns ‘they

People are either male or female, it's not necessary to "feel strongly" that you are a woman or a man in order to be your biological sex, whatever pronouns you "prefer".

Fair enough. As a feminist I care very much about what happens to my fellow women, but each to their own.

@ColdBrightClearMorning

Having worked in a male prison I find it very telling that for all of the focus on MN on ‘bringing to light’ assaults on cis woman by trans women, there’s rarely much discourse around the assaults endured by trans women in male prisons. The trans women I worked alongside in various prisons endured an incredible amount of emotional and physical abuse.

That’s not a problem caused by women though is it, and it’s not for women to solve. And it doesn’t mean that they should then be put into women’s prisons putting their fellow inmates at 5x increased risk of sexual offense being committed against them.

there’s rarely much discourse around the assaults endured by trans women in male prisons.

That is a matter for a discussion about male prisons. There are many vulnerable male people in prison and undoubtedly issues to address. It's not anything to do with feminism.

Having worked in a male prison I find it very telling that for all of the focus on MN on ‘bringing to light’ assaults on cis woman by trans women, there’s rarely much discourse around the assaults endured by trans women in male prisons. The trans women I worked alongside in various prisons endured an incredible amount of emotional and physical abuse

extraordinary. you think women who are feminists don't focus enough on male violence on other males?

im furious that they don't talk about donkey sanctuaries more. very telling indeed.

Fair enough. As a feminist I care very much about what happens to my fellow women, but each to their own.

So do I. In fact I care very much about a lot of things. But as I feminist I quite reasonably I think focus on women and girls, rather than the problems of male people.

Just to add to the research link. It seems that at least some trans women are happy with their penises.

There are a lot of trans women on Twitter who threat to rape women with it and ask them to choke on their female penis.

I think a few of trans women posted pictures of themselves and their penises and sent those to Baroness Nicholson and to JK Rowling on a feed where the latter were commenting on children’s drawings.

I think even jj commented that they would prefer to keep theirs?

It is only observational of course.

And it does not at all have anything to do with a) all the people under the trans umbrella which includes men in beards b) the difference required in legal protection as trans women cannot get pregnant (no need for legal protection from maternity and pregnancy complication) and are stronger due to male puberty (impact on physical vulnerability and sports).

I’m not sure why you think I am saying people aren’t either male or female... pretty clearly I understand the difference between sex and gender.

You understand then that gender is a purely social construct?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

there’s rarely much discourse around the assaults endured by trans women in male prisons.

That is a matter for a discussion about male prisons. There are many vulnerable male people in prison and undoubtedly issues to address. It's not anything to do with feminism.

Exactly. Violence in prisons is sadly a very big problem, but it’s not a new one. The policy to subject women to being locked in cells with males who may be violent or sex offenders is certainly quite innovative and that’s why it’s getting more airtime.

It doesn’t mean I don’t care about general issues with prisons. I’m just not focused there presently, but if other people are then I’m pleased that it’s getting addressed.

And that sex very much matters, especially to women and girls?

It matters to some a great deal and costs me nothing to use their preferred pronouns

Does it matter to you, ColdBrightClearMorning, that you are not treated worse because you are a woman in a professional setting? Because if so you may like to look up the "stereotype threat", and consider that adding pronouns into, eg, a work email signature can negatively impact women in the workplace.

It does "cost you" something. And even if you don;t mind it costing you, it's not for you to give away other women's rights.

@ColdBrightClearMorning

Having worked in a male prison I find it very telling that for all of the focus on MN on ‘bringing to light’ assaults on cis woman by trans women, there’s rarely much discourse around the assaults endured by trans women in male prisons. The trans women I worked alongside in various prisons endured an incredible amount of emotional and physical abuse.

Violence amongst males in male prisons is a different issue from placing males in female prisons.

Male prisoners should not be in female prisons, however they identify. If it is necessary they could be placed in a special wing for trans prisoners or alongside other vulnerable prisoners in the male estate.

The safety of female prisoners should not be compromised in order to benefit males.

I don't know why you think the safety of some male prisoners at the hands of other males has anything to do with female prisoners or women in general.

People are either male or female, it's not necessary to "feel strongly" that you are a woman or a man in order to be your biological sex, whatever pronouns you "prefer".

Indeed. It's really not surprising that many people don't strongly feel one sex or the other, in terms of what they think they're meant to feel like.

It's correlates with the number of young girls showing up gender clinics, who are lesbian. Women attracted to women, and not conforming to the male gaze, will, quite understandably, see themselves as not being like other women.

And so they think they are men.

Anyone with an ounce of perception, can see the sexism involved in forcing the sexes into these stereotypical boxes.

Fortunately, the government has mandated that children are not to be taught that there is any such thing as being born in the wrong body. A direct result of imagining there is a gender identity that means you can have some kind of inner core that's one sex, but the body of another.

And yes, prison conditions are woeful.

Male violence is a global scandal.

I find it very telling that for all of the focus on MN on ‘bringing to light’ assaults on cis woman by trans women, there’s rarely much discourse around the assaults endured by trans women in male prisons.

What does it tell you exactly?

Well, to me it says that women should drop everything, immediately, and concentrate on men. Otherwise they'll get told off.

@jj1968

More often than not, this disruption is caused by trauma, abuse, rigid enforcement of sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes by parents or caregivers and similar issues.

Can you provide some evidence for ths please? Ideally something peer reviewed. It is a somewhat bold claim.

Are you seriously going to pretend that this is news to you? That's a new low, even for you.

I recently read up on the original treatment protocols used by the Dutch clinic that pioneered the affirmative treatment using puberty blockers at Tanner Stage 2/3. They stress the importance of psychiatric treatment because trauma is present in so many children with gender dysphoria.

A Google search using the terms

gender dysphoria childhood trauma returns 855,000 results
gender identity disorder childhood trauma returns 38 million

A Google scholar search using these terms returns

22,200 and
226,000

articles respectively.

(Gender dysphoria is the new term for this condition, as adopted in 2013. Most of the existing body of research still uses gender identity disorder.)

Disclaimer: not all of these results on Google Scholar will focus on childhood trauma in patients diagnosed with gender dysphoria, but there is a huge body of research into this issue because it is a common issue in these children.

And no, jj1968 I'm not going to post a single paper. No paper is ever good enough for you and your faux astonishment at my statement is just too silly to entertain right now. But you are welcome to take your pick from the Google Scholar results:

scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=gender+dysphoria+childhood+trauma&btnG=

scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=gender+identity+disorder+childhood+trauma&btnG=