To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

CharlieParley

Ereshkigalangcleg
I'd assume that the largest group of these people are cross dressing males. "Non binary" wasn't really a thing when the GIRES figures were from. It's exploded, as a teen trend, since then. As has the idea of young girls and women identifying as male.
Transvestism has a prevalence of around 2% to 6% in the adult male population. With around 26m adult males in the UK, this amounts to between half a million and two million crossdressers.

They are not typically included in that 1% estimate of people who identify as trans.

jj1968 is quite right that most of these males will not claim to identify as women. But is quite wrong in asserting that they would not seek to use women's spaces.

Because they already do. We have hundreds and hundreds of women sharing the negative impact that this has on their lives on the Feminism Chat board.

We have entire threads where the wives of crossdressing men who later go on to identify as trans share their personal accounts of abuse at the hands of these men. Who very happily use women's spaces when "en femme" despite having neither socially nor medically transitioned.

And we know self-id has been abused in every single country that has introduced it.

That's the reason why there is now a worldwide grassroots movement of women and women's rights groups opposing self-id. In many countries this is still only emerging, but we are talking to women from Africa, the Americas, Asia, Europe and Oceania about the problems they are experiencing.

Even CEDAW has taken note and raised concerns about women's sex-based rights being superseded by self-id policies in its most recent country report on Portugal, published in November 2020.

So the handwaving away of our concerns by claiming there are no problems in other countries just won't do it anymore. Women across the world are talking to each other. And we are bloody furious. Organising to push back against this ideology that sees us as walking stereotypes. And we won't all be gone in 5 or 10 years as jj1968 hopes. I might be. But there will be millions more of my sisters standing up for our rights by then.*

Bravo Charlie

Men who obsess over women who say no to them are... telling.

This point about “oh, well, trans women were already in all of your spaces anyway, so you’re too late to make a fuss” is also interesting, and infuriating.

1. It doesn’t take account of the fact that women didn’t ever consent to this - the GRA was brought in very quietly and without fanfare and women weren’t aware of what it might mean, because we were told it would result in about 5000 GRCs being issued, so chances are, you would not encounter a trans woman in your day to day life because of the low numbers. Now the relevant figures, whatever they may actually be, are many multiples of this. It’s a completely different proposition.

1. It very much depends what you mean by “women’s spaces”. I’ve personally shared loos with trans women that I’m aware of, but even 10 years ago there was never any question of being pressured not to pass comment if trans women want to play on my women’s rugby team, be in a single sex ward with me in hospital, act as women’s officer in my political party, be naked with me in a communal changing room, or god forbid if I got sent to prison, be locked up in a jail cell with me. There are many women’s spaces that were not open to trans women, and many women who wish to keep them single sex.

1. Now women do know, we have some questions and some demands of our own, so we’re going to have to have these conversations and I personally won’t be shamed or guilted out of doing so, or told that I never had a problem with it before, so why am I being so difficult now, because it’s a lie.

Now women do know, we have some questions and some demands of our own, so we’re going to have to have these conversations and I personally won’t be shamed or guilted out of doing so, or told that I never had a problem with it before, so why am I being so difficult now, because it’s a lie.

This👆

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I was gendered as feminine (taught to be nice and quiet and that my looks were more important than my intelligence and so on) in a patriarchal world. This is what gender used to mean. I’m still ‘feminine’ because that early conditioning, which is constantly reinforced in a world that expects us to be ‘nice’ and ‘pretty’ and sanctions us if we are not, is hard to throw.

My sex is female. I am a woman. My pronouns are the ones you learnt in primary school.

It is important to me to challenge assumptions that Gender is innate because as a system of socialisation it is so intrinsic to women’s oppression.

I refuse to state my pronouns because it gives voice to the lie that gender is something we feel rather than being imposed on us in a patriarchal world.

Brilliant explanation as to why gender identification is so insidious and should be challenged. Not dismissed – clearly some people have a strong sense of their own need for it – but challenged, debated, not passively accepted without question.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And it is a shame because there are some interesting things amongst the condescending, patronising, disingenuous crap

You'll have to point them out to me!

Alright might be stretching a bit 😀

But the post on third gender had a few that I’d never heard of so can read about them (i do agree that most of them seem to be gay men)

And there was one on socialism i think it was, im sure there are others but i just skip past 90%

There are very few posters that just dont say anything, even links that aren’t relevant can be interesting, even if its only to see where someone is ‘coming from’

Maybe im subconsciously bored 🤔

I belong to the female sex, always have and always will, it wouldn't change even if I wanted it to. I have experienced social conditioning to behave like the patriarchy think a woman should but other people's expectations mean absolutely nothing to me now I'm an adult who's more aware of the damage inflicted by gender stereotypes. In this vein, I don't have a gender identity because, frankly, they're made up bollocks. Be who you are short of causing harm to others.
As I've seen brilliantly written here; my pronouns are sex-based like my oppression.
Biological men have no right to be in women's sex segregated spaces and you should reconsider why men who insist on violating our right for these to exist are sometimes seen as having alterior motives (particularly by women who have experienced what many men are truly capable).
Men who feel vulnerable, I regret that you do and have empathy for your situation, however I will not throw women under the bus to resolve this.

I think this whole discussion is so illuminating.

I really do feel for trans women if they experience genuine dysphoria and have some irresistible feeling that they are in the wrong body.

The problem is that
a) trans now cannot be defined and includes everyone, including the males with beards who posts creepy pictures from inside women’s shelters.

b) even dysphoric trans women need different legal protections compared to women as they won’t ever fall pregnant. They are also stronger than women due to male puberty which has an impact on risk and sports achievements.

c) we are now being told that due to the feelings of the tiny proportion of dysphoric trans women, we now need to not only let in the massive group under a) but also give up our legal protections under b). This is completely disproportionate and it puts women at risk physically and legally.

d) on this thread we are being bombarded with fairly dodgy statistics and studies by a poster who just does not take no for an answer. The same poster does not acknowledge any risk or disadvantages to women and shows no empathy for vulnerable women and girls. It is all about bulldozing all over women’s rights, regardless of risk to women because they want to be validated as a woman.

Completely agree with all of your post there coffee

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9241217/Hospital-tells-midwives-use-terms-like-birthing-parents-human-milk.html#comments

Sorry it is a daily mail link and we all know how much mn hates the daily mail but this is true and happening just down the road from me.

This is an example to women being eroded to comply with gender identification.

But the post on third gender had a few that I’d never heard of so can read about them (i do agree that most of them seem to be gay men)

I thought that was interesting because there were a few that were new to me as well. I thought it was telling that even though those lesser known 'third genders' were included, jj omitted two that I know of which are exclusively to enable women /girls to live as men/boys - the Albanian sworn virgins and the bacha posh in Afghanistan.

But the contrast between the 'third genders' for women and those for men is stark. Those for women and girls are to allow them some of the privileges of males in a patriarchal society, but the sworn virgins are not allowed to have sexual relationships and the bacha posh have to revert to a female identity at puberty. For men, they mainly seem to be about legitimising homosexual relationships in a homophobic society.

Here's a Times sharetoken link for the Brighton story.
I wonder if the guardian is covering it and how they spin it? Bet they don't have the comments on if they do.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/breastfeeding-is-now-chestfeeding-brightons-trans-friendly-midwives-are-told-pwlvmcnc7?shareToken=cb0db44e152de02b2d24dbea9991db34

Exactly, and none of these third genders are created/tolerated to allow greater individual freedom or authenticity of self, they’re created in societies with extremely strict gender roles and prohibitions on homosexuality, so that the “natural order” of these things isn’t challenged at all.

They’ve got nothing at all to do with gender identity in western societies (and aren’t progressive people required to despise cultural appropriation anyway?)

Interestingly regarding other cultures and third genders is that they do not believe that sex has been changed to the opposite sex. Gender≠ sex

@notyourhandmaid

Men who obsess over women who say no to them are... telling.

And the fact that either they can't see it or they don't care.

Trying to brow beat women because your experience tells you it's an effective tactic isn't a good look once you've been rumbled.

What I don't understand is why carry on? On and on and on.

I've concluded that it's an end itself.

end in itself. Enjoyable, in other words.

It constitutes compelled speech and goes against a whole load of Human Rights laws. It compromises the right to personal privacy for a start. In addition, pronouns are set by Grammar and are there for the sole reason of clarity and avoidance of am ambiguity. No one has the right to compel others to change their language to suit individual egos.

It very much depends what you mean by “women’s spaces”. I’ve personally shared loos with trans women that I’m aware of, but even 10 years ago there was never any question of being pressured not to pass comment if trans women want to play on my women’s rugby team, be in a single sex ward with me in hospital, act as women’s officer in my political party, be naked with me in a communal changing room, or god forbid if I got sent to prison, be locked up in a jail cell with me. There are many women’s spaces that were not open to trans women, and many women who wish to keep them single sex.

Absolutely and over on FWR (Feminist Chat) we are hearing from lesbian groups who can’t get community funding because they won’t admit male lesbians, breastfeeding groups who admit male bodied transgender people and throw out women who object to sharing their intimate details with a male, there are women’s groups who have had meeting venues targeted and forced to cancel events because they are talking about women’s rights. I could go on.

I’m sure all of us here would have zero objection to any group of people set up a group to share a common interest. Trans groups are for trans people and I’m sure anyone who does not have that experience of life would not presume to intrude and ultimately take over.

But this is what is happening to women (I have even seen a playbook on how to achieve a full takeover of a group) - we are literally being prevented from having a group or space for ourselves.

@OldCrone

But the post on third gender had a few that I’d never heard of so can read about them (i do agree that most of them seem to be gay men)

I thought that was interesting because there were a few that were new to me as well. I thought it was telling that even though those lesser known 'third genders' were included, jj omitted two that I know of which are exclusively to enable women /girls to live as men/boys - the Albanian sworn virgins and the bacha posh in Afghanistan.

But the contrast between the 'third genders' for women and those for men is stark. Those for women and girls are to allow them some of the privileges of males in a patriarchal society, but the sworn virgins are not allowed to have sexual relationships and the bacha posh have to revert to a female identity at puberty. For men, they mainly seem to be about legitimising homosexual relationships in a homophobic society.

Absolutely, and as you say the ‘omission’ was just as interesting

I think it is a male socialisation thing. It is if they are thinking “If I just keep going, sooner or later the women will give in.”

It is not unique to this poster. I remember another thread where a woman didn’t want to participate in some sexual fetish. All the female posters supported her in saying no.

A male poster popped up and said “of course she could say no but “it might be fun”, “you should try it”, “never say never”. This poster never even thought about the fact that he was trying to cross a boundary. And kept going for page after page on the thread. Even after it was pointed out to him that he was pushing boundaries. It is like women saying no is a starting point for a discussion. I find it beyond creepy.

Just to clarify, this man introduced himself with “man here”, before I get accused of misgendering.

I think it is a male socialisation thing. It is if they are thinking “If I just keep going, sooner or later the women will give in.”

I hadn't considered that they might think their arguments were actually persuasive. I thought it was just designed to wear us down reposting the same things over and over because they refuse to read what's already been posted.

I've had enough of interacting with that particular poster after last night. Every piece of evidence I posted was dismissed as not enough (the last time it was because they had only managed to read one sentence when they needed to read two). Meanwhile their 'evidence' consists of links to articles on random news websites which are about a different topic entirely. And also being accused of making things up because I don't have all the links to hand, while they simultaneously misrepresent what was said on another thread (which anyone could go and look at and see that they're lying).

Yes I think they see it as a challenge.

Bacha bazi boys in afganistan are not a third gender.
The bacha boy or dancing boy custom is child sexual abuse. Poor young adolescent males sold into child prostitution and slavery.
The fact that they dress and dance like women is for the benefit of their male owners and they have little choice in the matter.

I think it is a male socialisation thing. It is if they are thinking “If I just keep going, sooner or later the women will give in.”

Absolutely, like so many old school romantic movies - the boy asks her out/wants a kiss, she says no, he won’t take no for an answer and keeps asking and demonstrates how she is wrong and she eventually gives in not rapey at all ...

@LongPauseNoAnswer

I have no gender. I know zero people with a gender.

Same, we're all just people with different personalities, likes & dislikes. All this gender pushing is really regressive imo