To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

That's awful, Proudboomer

@Proudboomer

Bacha bazi boys in afganistan are not a third gender. The bacha boy or dancing boy custom is child sexual abuse. Poor young adolescent males sold into child prostitution and slavery. The fact that they dress and dance like women is for the benefit of their male owners and they have little choice in the matter.

Nobody has mentioned bacha bazi. I mentioned the bacha posh custom where girls live as boys.

I'd say having a gender identity basically means you are sexist

Bacha posh don’t have a say in the matter either as they are a young child when the parent or guardian decides they should dress and be raised male. Often because there is no male children and by raising a daughter as bacha posh they can work, attend school and chaperone female relatives.
It is never the choice of the child because of some form of gender dismopha.

Disputing that gender identity is a real concept (which is what I think the majority of people here are doing) is perfectly legitimate, though you are standing against the medical and psychological consensus, presumably for ideological reasons, or more likely because you take your gender identity for granted.

Most people have no idea what proprioception is, and they take for granted that they know where there limbs are. You only understand it when it's not working. In the same way, non-trans people don't notice their gender identity, because it matches their sexed body. Just because you take it for granted, it doesn't mean it's not real.

Likewise, until relatively recently, heterosexual people took their sexuality for granted - sexuality as it's used today is a relatively recent concept. Now, we understand that sexual attraction comes in many forms and there a few people now who would deny they have a sexuality.

It doesn't matter if you vote not to have a gender identity, by the definition of the word, you do. It's like voting to not have a spleen. Gender identity is not gender expression. It says nothing about how you "ought" to behave or dress.

In the same way, non-trans people don't notice their gender identity, because it matches their sexed body.

Can you give a bit more information about this? I am female. In what way(s) would you expect my gender identity to 'match' my sexed body?

Gender identity is not gender expression. It says nothing about how you "ought" to behave or dress.

Since gender is all about the sexist notions of how women and men are expected to behave, dress etc., how can 'gender identity' not be about these things? What is it about?

Most people have no idea what proprioception is, and they take for granted that they know where there limbs are. You only understand it when it's not working.

Which is when there is a psychological or neurological problem. It's not an "equally valid" way of experiencing where your limbs are, and that some people just know where they are and some people just don't. It is a medical issue.

I don't have a "limb placement identity" just because a small group of people with a medical condition aren't aware of where their limbs are.

I think it is more like Christians might tell me I have a soul but I might not agree DadJoke.

There actually is no convincing evidence that gender identity is more than a belief which no doubt is important to the believers.

A spleen is something we can agree on existing.

I've got a human identity. I've got a short person identity, I suppose. I've got a sex identity, in that I know what sex I am, it makes a difference to my physicality and how others perceive and treat me. What's 'gender identity' - is it sex identity in the context of a sexist society which treats me differently than a man?

@DadJoke

Disputing that gender identity is a real concept (which is what I think the majority of people here are doing) is perfectly legitimate, though you are standing against the medical and psychological consensus, presumably for ideological reasons, or more likely because you take your gender identity for granted.

Most people have no idea what proprioception is, and they take for granted that they know where there limbs are. You only understand it when it's not working. In the same way, non-trans people don't notice their gender identity, because it matches their sexed body. Just because you take it for granted, it doesn't mean it's not real.

Likewise, until relatively recently, heterosexual people took their sexuality for granted - sexuality as it's used today is a relatively recent concept. Now, we understand that sexual attraction comes in many forms and there a few people now who would deny they have a sexuality.

It doesn't matter if you vote not to have a gender identity, by the definition of the word, you do. It's like voting to not have a spleen. Gender identity is not gender expression. It says nothing about how you "ought" to behave or dress.

Presumably you're just going to keep typing statements and assertions without any kind of evidence or without responding to any questions?

Do you genuinely believe that the women on here should just accept what you say? Even when it's self evidently not correct?

Disputing that gender identity is a real concept (which is what I think the majority of people here are doing) is perfectly legitimate, though you are standing against the medical and psychological consensus, presumably for ideological reasons, or more likely because you take your gender identity for granted.

No, you for ideological reasons are claiming that it is more than as a woman just knowing you are female. A male cannot "know" they are female. They can look at women and girls and think they fit in better, and they can identify with stereotypes around female people, but when I listen to a lot of younger MTF trans people speak it's clear that's not what is going on. All they can know is that they don't feel how they think a male should feel. They are rejecting being male.

Even if we did agree that everyone has a gender identity, why would it be more real than a persons sex? That’s what we’re debating here- gender identity is replacing sex in public life and that is causing problems for women. That’s it. Have all the gender identities you want, assign one to me if you wish, but I am going to continue to campaign for certain aspects of public life to be managed according to sex.

Its akin to a religiously organised society declaring that everyone has a soul, and anyone who doesn’t believe they have a soul is an apostate, and subject to controls on expressing their blasphemy. That’s now how tolerant, democration, liberal societies function.

I would sincerely like to know what criteria is being used to establish the existence of a gender identity.

DadJoke,

I accept and respect that you and others believe that they have a gender identity.

The concept seem to be widely discussed and mean different things to different people (nothing, oppression, dysphoria, euphoria, shame, excitement, etc etc etc).

You are referring to research and the medical profession, but also here opinions are divided and the evidence is sketchy.

I do not believe that this concept is sufficiently established to enable any sensible legal enshrinement or compelled speech.

*Likewise, until relatively recently, heterosexual people took their sexuality for granted - sexuality as it's used today is a relatively recent concept. Now, we understand that sexual attraction comes in many forms and there a few people now who would deny they have a sexuality.

Your sexuality is bound up by the way your physical body responds to another body be it of the opposite sex, your own sex or indeed both. When a male person gets an erection at the sight of a woman/ man I think they are pretty sure of their sexuality and I don't think that will have changed since man/ woman first walked this planet. The identity you are describing is more like an anorexic, denying the body they see in the mirror. Nobody would say that non anorexics had a non anorexic identity just because they look at themselves in the mirror and see what is really there.

No gender here, sex is female. As with most women, I don't know what it's like to 'feel' like a woman, or 'live' as one, I just am one.

@Datun

I would sincerely like to know what criteria is being used to establish the existence of a gender identity.

And also, if gender identity is to replace sex in the definition of what a woman or a man is, which is what the genderists want, we need objective criteria for discerning the gender identity of a person which goes beyond simply taking their word for it. Otherwise we will get situations in which someone pretends to have an opposite sex gender identity in order to gain advantages from that status, such as rapists wanting access to women's prisons or mediocre sportsmen wanting to compete against women.

Or we could just stick with the original definition of woman = adult female human, man = adult male human.

Disputing that gender identity is a real concept (which is what I think the majority of people here are doing) is perfectly legitimate, though you are standing against the medical and psychological consensus, presumably for ideological reasons

Could you please post some of these opinions from medical and psychological experts that show this is the 'consensus'? I have not seen anything that has shown that shows consensus on this topic across these disciplines and would be very keen on read both sides.

This is probably oversimplifying, but I think that gender does exist and is based on our cultural interpretations of sex and what a male or female person should 'be'. Gender is expressed in our beliefs and behaviours.

These beliefs can be sexist. E.g women should be meek and quiet, men should be assertive. Women are good at looking after children, men are good at science. Women should be pretty.

Some of our gender identity (or expressions of gender?) is conscious, and some is unconscious.

I also think it is problematic to deny gender exists, while also asserting that sexism does exist. Because a lot of the time, sexism is based on interpretations of how a man or woman should behave or look rather than on basic biology. E.g what is considered to be 'pretty' is very much down to cultural preferences.

Although feminists might question/challenge the legitimacy of our assumptions regarding the roles of men and women, the vast majority of people do conform to gender identity/expressions that 'match' their sex. Men and women do dress differently, have different interests, different roles in the home. Most of us automatically fall into this way of being. Women aren't actively thinking that they (we) are expressing gender when buying a necklace or a pair of heels, but we all accept that these are generally items for women and not for men.

It's a long time since I read anything on this topic - this is purely my interpretation and it probably isn't properly nuanced as it's a complicated subject. But it's how I understand the issue.

I also don’t think my objections are ideological in any way. This is a reality based issue for women, impacting on our everyday lives. It’s not a philosophical topic to chew over, like what the meaning of free will is or whether ethical capitalism is possible. It’s a lot easier for men to dismiss this as a theoretical situation that can be solved by kindness, because a) you’re not used to limitations being put on you because of your sex and b) all of this has far less impact on men’s daily lives.

Hard to imagine a man rocking up in a football shirt with a can of lager being accepted as a spokesperson for the trans community if they claim to be a woman?

But there are plenty of women in pubs drinking pints wearing football shirts.

Tying a knot in the front to expose their belly button will help!

*won't help!

I think a lot of people do conform more or less to the gender norms of society

But a lot of people don't, and the norms change over time anyway

Some people don't notice they do it, or they fit so well that they are happy . You may say their ( possibly subconscious ) gender identity matched thier sex . They may also be gender critical in that they may see gender causes problems, even if they are not directly affected

Some people notice they don't do it and are unhappy . They may feel as if something is wrong with them . Such people may identify as trans

Some people notice they don't do it and are nevertheless happy. Such people may identify as trans or gender None conforming or gender critical

Questions about gender , how one identified or not with it are irrelevant to questions about sex based rights

Because sex isn't gender

My sex is female but i have been conditioned by society to wear summer dresses, have long hair,shave my legs/ pits,drink wine rather than beer combat the aging process and so on...is that gender identity or am i just a bad feminist? I draw the lines at heels though! Xx