To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

Oh no... dog not dod ,to save confusion

BiBabbles, great post. National identity seems like a good analogy to gender identity.

And by trans they meant anyone gender variant to some degree including trans men and non binary people. I do wonder why some people find it so hard to grasp that trans is an umbrella term that covers all kind of gender identities, of which only one is trans woman.

Legislation to protect transsexuals and anyone else who suffers from gender dysphoria has already been passed, jj1968. The ongoing reform movement targeting the existing laws and the concerted effort to change policies on single-sex provisions are intended to cover everyone else under the trans umbrella.

So it is correct to reject your attempt to frame this issue as if it only concerned post-op transsexuals. Your transmedicalist views are not only out of step with most trans rights organisations, but also the proposed legal reforms as well as the changing policies.

As for the figures you contest, I'll just add the following: the submissions from trans rights organisations to the UK Government in the run up to the Gender Recognition Act being passed in 2004 were most insistent that at least 40% of transsexuals had not and would not medically transition. Therefore, they argued only a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and not an actual medical transition was acceptable as the qualifying medical criteria for a Gender Recognition Certificate.

Of course, that's prior to the trans umbrella being widened to cover all the groups that are under it today. But that was a move decided on by trans rights organisations, not us.

So it's entirely logical to point out that the vast majority of people who identify as trans do not transition medically and of the minority who do, only a small number proceed to genital surgery.

If you wish to focus on transsexuals alone, jj1968 then please, for the sake of comprehension, phrase this in a way that allows us to understand your meaning.

I've posted ample research about the nature of gender identity which addresses the first two paragraphs. It is something I have read around quite widely. Also I am trans and have discussed this with a lot of trans people.

I find the first paragraph offensive. You have no evidence that I have a gender identity (you can't, because I don't). I recommend you read this post by Datun again, because it says just about everything that needs to be said about gender and gender identity:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4158457-To-think-that-the-vast-majority-of-people-do-not-feel-they-have-a-gender-identity?msgid=104468714

As for the second one, what evidence do you have that children are responding to anything other than stereotypes? (In most cases - some may have more deep seated issues with their bodies, but this is a tiny minority). And do you really have any evidence about all this gender identity stuff in different times or cultures? This is an opportunity for you to present all your evidence.

@DadJoke

Identifying as a women and being a women are the same thing. The only people who don't have a gender identity are people who don't think of themselves as men or women are nonbinary or agender people, and even then, they have a gender identity in the sense that atheists have a religion.

For people whose gender identity matches their genitals, this isn't something they ever really think about, any more than straight people used to think about their sexuality - it's just "normal."

If you answer the question "Are you a woman?" yes, then your gender identity is woman. That's what the words "gender identity" mean.

Gender expression and gender identity are not the same thing. "Acting like" a women doesn't mean you identity as a women.

Identifying as a women and being a women are the same thing.

No. Identifying as being 12 and being 12 are not the same thing. "Identifying" denotes a belief, "being" denotes a material fact. There's a difference.

The only people who don't have a gender identity are people who don't think of themselves as men or women are nonbinary or agender people, and even then, they have a gender identity in the sense that atheists have a religion.

"Religion" denotes a belief in a superhuman being and the worship devoted to this being. I'm a fourth generation atheist. My family has not believed in metaphysical entities for about a hundred years. One of many reasons why I reject the doctrine of gender identity. I respect your right to believe it though.

For people whose gender identity matches their genitals, this isn't something they ever really think about, any more than straight people used to think about their sexuality - it's just "normal."

This betrays a profound ignorance of the female experience. We typically (but not always) start thinking about the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes imposed on our sex from before puberty and we typically (but not always) do so for the rest of our lives. That's because the stereotypes imposed on the female sex are actively harmful to female people. Which is why I've never met a single female person yet whose personality was defined by or based on embracing this damaging set of stereotypes. And I'm half a century old by now.

If you answer the question "Are you a woman?" yes, then your gender identity is woman. That's what the words "gender identity" mean.

No. If you answer the question with yes, then your sex is female. "Gender identity" does not mean sex, it is the theoretical concept of personality based on an individual's embodiment of the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with one or the other sex. In cases of a preference for opposite-sex stereotypes this can be accompanied by body dysmorphia.

"Woman" is not a set of sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with the female sex. "Woman" is the term that designates an adult human of the female sex.

Just as cow is the sex designator for female cattle, ewe is the sex designator for female sheep, bitch is the sex designator for female dogs and vixen is the sex designator for female foxes. Hen, doe, queen, mare, dam, jenny, lioness, she-bear. I'm sure you get the drift.

Gender expression and gender identity are not the same thing. "Acting like" a women doesn't mean you identity as a women.

Well, on that we can agree.

@VickyEadieofThigh

Found it!

Well, that settles it. I am not living like a woman. What am I?

Thank you though. Better to find out now that I'm womaning wrong...

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

No one LIKES cleaning

(And i dont care how many examples people want to give me of randoms that love to clean....cos I don’t believe it)

My mother likes to rage clean. Does that count?

Depends

Does she like being in a rage?

Or does she just like taking her fury out on a recalcitrant cushion?

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

Depends

Does she like being in a rage?

Or does she just like taking her fury out on a recalcitrant cushion?

The latter. My DM is pragmatic. So when she's furious, she likes to put that energy to good use.

Then no it doesn’t count 😀

She’s obviously just multitasking

I do wish I liked to rage clean, too. I hate cleaning, so when I'm furious that's the last thing I would choose to do.

And do you really have any evidence about all this gender identity stuff in different times or cultures? This is an opportunity for you to present all your evidence.

I'm not here to present you with a dissertation. If you are interested in cultural models with different gender formations then you could look up the Hijra of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, the Kathoey of Thailand, the Travesti of South America, the Māhū of Hawaii or the Two-spirit people amongst Native Americans. And whilst many of these groups date back centuries for other example you could read up on the Femminielli of ancient Naples, the description of the Mukhannathun in Islam, or the crossdressing voluntary eunuchs who worshipped Cybele. There are many other examples.

I don’t know what i like to do while angry 🤔

Just seethe probably

@Wearywithteens

“Gender might not seem important to most of you judging by the poll but I bet the majority would be pretty unhappy to be called "sir" or "Mr" which is why getting the correct gender pronoun's is important to helping people feel included and respected.”

WRONG. Couldn’t give a shit if someone called me Mr or Sir. Maybe I’m super resilient at coping with such a traumatic event. Although it strangely has never happened in over 30 years of working.

I have a name that easily mistaken for a man’s and I couldn’t give a single fuck if people call me Mr or Sir. Once they meet me they know I’m definitely a woman. If they want to continue to call me Mr or Sir I’d just assume they were thick or trying to be funny.

I don't think we should be holding up India as an example of getting gender/sex roles right.

As a woman who has travelled in that country and a few others listed that really, really, really shows ignorance about the things women in those societies face.

For context I was sexually harassed in a mosque when I was covered head to toe including my hair.

It might be ok for trans people in those countries, I wouldn't know. I can tell you gender expectations and sex restrictions have awful repercussions for women in many places.

Why are trans and transgender used interchangeably if one is a subset of the other?

Because language can sometimes be a bit messy. But trans does not mean trans woman, and neither does someone who is 'gender variant to some degree' in reply to the person who mentioned the GIRES document. There are different types of trans people, of which trans women are one type. I'm not explaining this again. It's like that fucking Father Ted sketch where he tries to teach Dougal about perspective.

'Trans woman' wasn't either of the two terms I asked about. Does 'trans woman' always mean 'transgender woman'? If I am a woman who identifies as something under the trans umbrella that isn't 'identifying as another gender' am I a trans woman?

You don't need to get sweary with me for asking. It's the people that are drafting laws and policy that are extremely unclear. And the people that repeatedly refuse to clarify these questions when asked directly.

As for the second one, what evidence do you have that children are responding to anything other than stereotypes?

I posted an article which talked about intersex children and how they now allow gender identity to emerge before assinging a sex. If you look into the history of the treatment of intersex children you will find lots of information on how the understanding of gender identity has influenced treatment protocols. And they still get it wrong quite often which is why intersex groups universally support Self ID.

@jj1968

And do you really have any evidence about all this gender identity stuff in different times or cultures? This is an opportunity for you to present all your evidence.

I'm not here to present you with a dissertation. If you are interested in cultural models with different gender formations then you could look up the Hijra of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, the Kathoey of Thailand, the Travesti of South America, the Māhū of Hawaii or the Two-spirit people amongst Native Americans. And whilst many of these groups date back centuries for other example you could read up on the Femminielli of ancient Naples, the description of the Mukhannathun in Islam, or the crossdressing voluntary eunuchs who worshipped Cybele. There are many other examples.

Any examples of women adopting a male gender identity?

Most, if not all, of your examples are of societies which found a way to accommodate gay men without explicitly allowing homosexuality.

None of them are evidence of a universal innate gender identity.

Any examples of women adopting a male gender identity?

I can give you one: Albanian sworn virgins. It's an escape from being a woman in a highly patriarchal society.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanianswornn_virgins

@jj1968

As for the second one, what evidence do you have that children are responding to anything other than stereotypes?

I posted an article which talked about intersex children and how they now allow gender identity to emerge before assinging a sex. If you look into the history of the treatment of intersex children you will find lots of information on how the understanding of gender identity has influenced treatment protocols. And they still get it wrong quite often which is why intersex groups universally support Self ID.

That article about gender identity said that that 'emerged' through the type of play the child enjoyed ('rough and tumble') and the sex of the people they were attracted to. That seemed a bit simplistic. Why are those things not stereotypes?

Also I am trans and have discussed this with a lot of trans people.

Ah, so you are trans, because you fall under the trans umbrella? Like all the other huge number of people that also do, including cross dressers?

Having a minority 'third gender' option for mostly effiminate gay men is not quite the same thing as having no sense of what men and women are. These are different ways of categorising those who don't quite fit within sex stereotypes, rather than not having those sex stereotypes to begin with.

If I am a woman who identifies as something under the trans umbrella that isn't 'identifying as another gender' am I a trans woman?

Yes, surely that's the case?

intersex groups universally support Self ID.

Oh, really, do they? How interesting. Can you point me to where they say this, please?

'Trans woman' wasn't either of the two terms I asked about. Does 'trans woman' always mean 'transgender woman'? If I am a woman who identifies as something under the trans umbrella that isn't 'identifying as another gender' am I a trans woman?

If you mean a woman born physically female then they may be a trans man, or trans non binary person - or similar variation, both of which fall under the trans umbrella,. And yes trans woman and transgender woman mean the same thing, somebody born physically male who identifies as a woman. The trans umbrella, as Stonewall describe it* refers to people who are gender variant to some degree. This could include 'trans woman', 'trans men' non binary people, gender fluid people, and those who see themselves as crossdressers or transvesties. It could even include butch lesbians or GNC men or women. The reason for this is that the trans umbrella was used by Stonewall to describe all those who may face stigma, prejudice or hostility due to their gender identity, gender presentation or gender non-conformity.

*and no-one really cares about Stonewall's trans umbrella outside of Gender Critical circles where they are seemingly obsessed by it. Stonewall are a small LGBT charity based in the UK. Transgender people represents millions of people across every continent and even here trans people do not hang off Stonewall's every word - most trans people barely know they exist.

(and I apologise for being sweary, you have always posted respectfully to me and you deserved the same back)