To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

I think what Vicky has posted is 'the misogynists guide to finding the perfect "surrendered wife", rather than any sort of description of real women.

I won't answer the question" are you a woman " without first knowing what is meant by the word woman

If adult human female then ye
If anything else , no

@unmarkedbythat

It's weird that the concept of gender identity causes such angst in modern Western cultures but not in others. Also weird how insistent many modern Westerners are that only their view of sex and gender can possibly be the right one and that despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, their position on what sex and gender is and are is timeless, universal and unarguable.

Are there cultures that don't define gender broadly as a set of masculine / feminine attributes?

Genuinely interested in the answer to this.

It's about how clinicians working with babies born of an ambiguous sex now usually wait until gender identity emerges before assigning a sex because they frequently used to get it wrong and that created a lot of unhappy kids.

I think this would be better phrased that clinicians are moving away from cosmetic surgeries on infants to focus more on the medical needs.

This is great and something activists have fought for for years; however, they can't wait to designate a sex - the child's treatment would rely on knowing which DSD they have. Some DSDs are lethal, infants die from them without treatment. That their phenotype sex may not match their chromosomal sex is very important in diagnosis which is important for long-term health. Their sex is known (most intersex activist organizations think it's very important for intersex children to know that and their condition), they've just not been needlessly altered to match.

You're just making things up again. How on earth could you possibly know that.

GIRES compiled research presented to Parliament on the topic to support changes to the GRA - it's on how many approach medical professionals for medical transition, not on how many had it. It's less than 5% in the UK at the time they were reporting. Obviously it doesn't have data on how many go forward to operations, and there are the considerations that those who self-medicate may slightly shift up those who do cross-sex hormones, but they won't really alter how many are getting operations.

The highest they expect it to get is a fifth of the dysphoric population, still a minority, and many think that the data its based on is unreliable/showing a bulge effect that may not apply to the UK.

Part of the issue in following the science - particularly in this area with the replication crises that is currently going on. We have a major issue across many fields, particularly psychology, that yeah, we have studies, we even have data reviews, but a lot of questionable methodologies being used and issues with funding many of even the biggest well known 'facts' have ended up not being as concrete as were previously believed. Even the GIRES link, it's based on the idea that 1% of the population is dysphoric, but that stat isn't entirely solid and is unlikely to be as universal as some researchers would like to think, but stats like that is what so much of the research in this area is based on so it could end up crumbling. If we could get a shake up of academic structures and funding, I imagine a lot of research would crumble.

Identifying as a women and being a women are the same thing. The only people who don't have a gender identity are people who don't think of themselves as men or women are nonbinary or agender people, and even then, they have a gender identity in the sense that atheists have a religion.

Atheists don't have a religion. A religion requires a system of worship/devotion. Having a philosophy or worldview without that is not a religion. Some atheists act like it with a one true way of being an atheist that people compare to religious devotion, but no, it's not a religion. It takes more than a belief about deities to make a religion.

Gender, unlike religion, has a pretty fluctuating definition largely because different groups come at it from different perspectives. Identity even more so because there are so many facets and ideas around it and how it changes over time, many of which is hard to etst. Trying to claim a universal truth that applies to everyone, in every culture, about gender or identity is ideological. Some stand strong behind their ideologies, that's fair enough, but much like trying to apply religion concepts to everyone, you look like you're preaching something.

We can recognize human sexual phenotypes and debate its importance compared to gametes or genetic sex (and our limits on altering phenotypes), but everyone has a sex and there is a wealth of data that it matters. Gender identity, to me - trying to claim that's universally innate is like trying to claim we all have an innate nationality identity. Sure, there may be genetic components that when interacting with certain environments means some people feel and attribute their sense of self to their nation - we see it matters a lot to some people - but there is no reason to think it's universal or that any genetic relationship is tied solely to that or is meant to do that rather than a by-product of many other biological processes that we apply significance to that someone else, having the exact same physiological experience, may attribute differently -- it happens enough with other things.

"I have always know my gender identity is female" and "I have always know I am female" are semantically the same. That's what gender identity means.

No, I don't accept that. No one would talk about "gender identity" if it wasn't for this ideology. I reject it.

No one seems to be able to explain what gender is. If something is not measurable and quantifiable then how can we use it in a formal way?

I believe in biological sex and everything else is just like sprinkles on a cake.

Wonder which cultures don't know the differences between the two sexes?

If you answer the question "Are you a woman?" yes, then your gender identity is woman. That's what the words "gender identity" mean.

And with that one comment DadJoke negates all jj’s arguments about ‘transwomen’ just being the ones who have dysphoria & want to change their bodies, & we’re back to any male being able to enter women’s spaces if they say the right words - which is exactly what Stonewall are lobbying for. No thanks.

YY, Empress

They disagree Empress? Surely not.

@ladyvimes

No one seems to be able to explain what gender is. If something is not measurable and quantifiable then how can we use it in a formal way?

I believe in biological sex and everything else is just like sprinkles on a cake.

In law, no less. And political representation.

When some people have one and some don't, or it fluctuates, sometimes on a weekly basis, and some people used to have one but don't now, or some had one type, but now they have a different one.

And it's different for every person and cant really be described. It's fairly unidentifiable as no one can really define it, and you don't know how to determine if you have one. Or not.

Am I the only one who feels slightly offended that I am presumed to be too stupid to read research reports or understand statistics?

When a poster posts links to random research and claims it supports a certain point (which it doesn’t) is this because I am supposed to have a silly “lady brain” whatever that is? Or is it because the poster genuinely believes it supports their point?

I am homeschooling my children and need to make sure that my year 8 DC doesn’t write any essays where the evidence doesn’t support the conclusions. I am not sure I have the energy to give a lot of constructive feedback to anonymous posters online.

Thanks bibabbles

Great post

So to correct my earlier post, some crossdressers do progress to being transsexual and wish to have their penises removed. But not all of them, and all of them are still under the enormous Stonewall trans umbrella.

Yes you made a sweeping generalisation about a diverse groups of people with no evidence. It's intellectually very lazy and often reveals unconscious bias.

I don't know know how to explain the whole trans umbrella thing again. I'll try put it very simply. A wolf and a poodle are not the same thing. They are not even the same species. Yet they both come under the category of dog. I know, it's amazing isn't it, but once you get your head round the concept all kinds of things are likely to become clearer.

jj why, specifically, do you think the distinction is pertinent when we are discussing changes to the law? Are you asserting that crossdressers do not identify as the opposite sex?
When talking about transgender people what definition DO you think should be used? Why are trans and transgender used interchangeably if one is a subset of the other?

Assume that some wolves genuinely feels like poodles. And try really hard to act like poodles. And even going to the trouble to change their appearance to look like poodles. Those wolves may be safe around hens. And they may feel at risk with the other wolves as they no longer act like wolves.

But assume further that as soon as a wolf states that they feel like a poodle, they are to be treated like a poodles and kept with the hens.

How do we tell the difference between the wolves who genuinely feels like poodles and the wolves who only says they do to get into the hen house?

@DeaconBoo

jj why, specifically, do you think the distinction is pertinent when we are discussing changes to the law? Are you asserting that crossdressers do not identify as the opposite sex? When talking about transgender people what definition DO you think should be used? Why are trans and transgender used interchangeably if one is a subset of the other?

why, specifically, do you think the distinction is pertinent when we are discussing changes to the law? Are you asserting that crossdressers do not identify as the opposite sex?

Yes.

When talking about transgender people what definition DO you think should be used?

Transgender people are those who identify as a sex different to the one they were born, or sometimes somewhere in between the two. Both born physically male who identify as women are transgender women. Those born physically female who identify as male are transgender men. Those born of either sex who identify somewhere on a spectrum between the two are non binary transgender people.

Why are trans and transgender used interchangeably if one is a subset of the other?

Because language can sometimes be a bit messy. But trans does not mean trans woman, and neither does someone who is 'gender variant to some degree' in reply to the person who mentioned the GIRES document. There are different types of trans people, of which trans women are one type. I'm not explaining this again. It's like that fucking Father Ted sketch where he tries to teach Dougal about perspective.

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

Assume that some wolves genuinely feels like poodles. And try really hard to act like poodles. And even going to the trouble to change their appearance to look like poodles. Those wolves may be safe around hens. And they may feel at risk with the other wolves as they no longer act like wolves.

But assume further that as soon as a wolf states that they feel like a poodle, they are to be treated like a poodles and kept with the hens.

How do we tell the difference between the wolves who genuinely feels like poodles and the wolves who only says they do to get into the hen house?

I've never seen any evidence of a wolf that identifies as a poodle so it seems a bit of a pointless question.

Also poodles can be vicious and hens wouldn't be safe around them either.

Yes you made a sweeping generalisation about a diverse groups of people with no evidence. It's intellectually very lazy and often reveals unconscious bias.

You have been posting sweeping generalisations about people all through this thread. In fact, you seldom do anything else on threads you're on. Here are some examples from this thread. Are you going to offer any evidence for these statements or should I just assume intellectual laziness and unconscious bias (although I'm not sure your bias is at all unconscious).

If you don't feel discomfort with the sexed aspects of your body, or cringe a bit inside if someone refers to you using pronouns and language which places you in a gendered role you don't feel fits you, then congratulations, your gender identity probably matches your physical sex so you have probably never really thought much about gender identity and don't think you have one.

When a five year old physical female says she a boy, or vice versa, and keeps saying it, to the point that as soon as they get chance they may even begin to alter their physical body to make it closer to their desired sex then I think it's likely something is going on which is beyond something which can just be dismissed as a preference for gender stereotypes. I think it's probably something we don't fully understand yet but it is something that has manifested across different times and cultures and very much appears to be part of the human experience.

But most men can't even be asked to hold a handbag in public without having a crisis of masculinity.

Evidence for any of these?

I corrected myself about crossdressers because I was originally thinking about people like Grayson Perry and Eddie Izzard (as he used to be - although who knows what's going on with him now, but I don't get the impression he's keen to part with his penis - what with still wanting his 'boy' acting roles). But obviously some do progress to identifying as 'transwomen'. Having read about trans widows I know that identifying as trans often starts with crossdressing.

I'm confused, wolves and poodles are the same species, not different ones. Poodles are a subset of the species that includes wolves.

Not following this at all

@OldCrone

Yes you made a sweeping generalisation about a diverse groups of people with no evidence. It's intellectually very lazy and often reveals unconscious bias.

You have been posting sweeping generalisations about people all through this thread. In fact, you seldom do anything else on threads you're on. Here are some examples from this thread. Are you going to offer any evidence for these statements or should I just assume intellectual laziness and unconscious bias (although I'm not sure your bias is at all unconscious).

If you don't feel discomfort with the sexed aspects of your body, or cringe a bit inside if someone refers to you using pronouns and language which places you in a gendered role you don't feel fits you, then congratulations, your gender identity probably matches your physical sex so you have probably never really thought much about gender identity and don't think you have one.

When a five year old physical female says she a boy, or vice versa, and keeps saying it, to the point that as soon as they get chance they may even begin to alter their physical body to make it closer to their desired sex then I think it's likely something is going on which is beyond something which can just be dismissed as a preference for gender stereotypes. I think it's probably something we don't fully understand yet but it is something that has manifested across different times and cultures and very much appears to be part of the human experience.

But most men can't even be asked to hold a handbag in public without having a crisis of masculinity.

Evidence for any of these?

I corrected myself about crossdressers because I was originally thinking about people like Grayson Perry and Eddie Izzard (as he used to be - although who knows what's going on with him now, but I don't get the impression he's keen to part with his penis - what with still wanting his 'boy' acting roles). But obviously some do progress to identifying as 'transwomen'. Having read about trans widows I know that identifying as trans often starts with crossdressing.

@OldCrone

I've posted ample research about the nature of gender identity which addresses the first two paragraphs. It is something I have read around quite widely. Also I am trans and have discussed this with a lot of trans people.

Have you had lots of discussion with trans women and cross dressers about how they feel about their genitals? Have you read the academic literature on gender dyphoria? You must have at least read Blanchard which makes it very clear that many trans women very much do seek medical treatment. What have you read that contradicts that? You must surely have some idea of how many trans people are on the NHS waiting list, how many more are going private or self medicate and how many go to Thailand for surgery if you can make such sweeping generalisations. Could you possibly post a link. Or did you just make it all up based on a hunch?

Admittedly the handbag line was a throw away comment based on my own observations of men when confronted with anything that might be an affront to their masculinity.

@BraxtonChic

I'm confused, wolves and poodles are the same species, not different ones. Poodles are a subset of the species that includes wolves.

Not following this at all

Same family, not same species.

Jj

If all trans people said the same thing , this might be easier. But since the community as a whole can't agree , you can't say anything is proven

And generally we don’t allow any dod from the dog family in with the chickens although it may be true that in one or two rare cases they can be proved not to hurt them