To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

I do cleaning as a displacement activity when upset.

The trans umbrella, as Stonewall describe it refers to people who are gender variant to some degree.*

'Gender variant' would probably be a more helpful term tbh. For better or worse, most people I would say, think 'trans' means transsexual.
Or at least that 'trans' is short for 'transgender' in all cases, and consequently that 'transgender' means anyone who id's as 'gender variant' to whatever extent.

I think people care about the 'trans umbrella' because policy often refers to 'trans' people and therefore all of these groups of people would fall under the definition, which may not be what is intended. Wording is important! I know it's bad and wrong for anything to be exclusionary but words by definition are, esp when used in law or policy!

The reason for this is that the trans umbrella was used by Stonewall to describe all those who may face stigma, prejudice or hostility due to their gender identity, gender presentation or gender non-conformity.

Oh ok, that surely could include all women? As we all have a gender identity don't we? And I've certainly faced stigma, prejudice and hostility because of the one transactivists say I have. How inclusive of Stonewall.

Isn't it amazing (not) that cooking and cleaning are excluded from this dick's idea of "real jobs"?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Any examples of women adopting a male gender identity?

I can give you one: Albanian sworn virgins. It's an escape from being a woman in a highly patriarchal society.

[[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian]]swornn_virgins

I wonder why jj didn't include this example? Could it be because it would have shown even more clearly the stereotypes in these patriarchal societies which drive people to adopt these cross sex gender identities?

Men - acceptance as an effeminate, gay male.
Women - being allowed to own property, inherit wealth and escape marriage.

Not dissimilar to the difference in motivations in our current society. Teenage girls do not transition for the same reasons as middle aged men.

But jj still insists it's not about stereotypes.

I wish we could get more interesting and thought provoking posts

Jj you kind off stifle conversations on here. Tbh

I do whizz past what you post but I can see you just dulling what other people want to say and debate

Sometimes there’s a time to listen and find out what other people want to say

It’s not telling you to shut up it’s about you thinking that other women on here might want to say and be heard and to debate

So it is correct to reject your attempt to frame this issue as if it only concerned post-op transsexuals. Your transmedicalist views are not only out of step with most trans rights organisations, but also the proposed legal reforms as well as the changing policies.

YY.

intersex groups universally support Self ID.

I've yet to read this. But what I have read is intersex people repeatedly asking for their medical condition to be left out of other people's political arguments that are not relevant to, and do not affect, them. They have asked for the courtesy of the most basic modicum of respect. It hasn't been granted.

People with DSD have been extremely clear about their boundaries. Yet, no matter how many times they assert them, certain activists constantly ride over those boundaries and show zero respect for their requests.

They do exactly the same thing to women.

@jj1968

As for the second one, what evidence do you have that children are responding to anything other than stereotypes?

I posted an article which talked about intersex children and how they now allow gender identity to emerge before assinging a sex. If you look into the history of the treatment of intersex children you will find lots of information on how the understanding of gender identity has influenced treatment protocols. And they still get it wrong quite often which is why intersex groups universally support Self ID.

Children with DSDs are a very small, very specific group of children. What was done to these children in the past was barbaric and wrong (although usually done with the best of intentions), but that article isn't really relevant to the present discussion.

The existence of people with DSDs doesn't mean that a man is a woman if he says he is.

I am a woman. My sex is female.

Any examples of women adopting a male gender identity?

Well there are some famous examples in European culture, there are also examples within some East African societies. And yes this could represent lesbians, it could represent trans men, or it could represent an idea of sex, sexuality and gender which is outside of our modern understanding.

Most, if not all, of your examples are of societies which found a way to accommodate gay men without explicitly allowing homosexuality..

Another sweeping generalisation based on no evidence. How on earth can you know? I agree that may be one explanation, or a partial explanation - I suspect often more effeminate gay men, trans women and intersex people were often all lumped together, but we have no real way of knowing, so much of this is lost to history. What we do know is that in countries such as Brasil and Thailand where acceptence of gay relationships has grown considerably in recent years it didn't make the Kathoey and Travesti disappear - on the contrary they emerged more confident and began to start to fight for their own rights.

None of them are evidence of a universal innate gender identity.

I never said they were. I don''t make sweeping generalisations. I said, whilst discussing trans identities "I think it's probably something we don't fully understand yet but it is something that has manifested across different times and cultures and very much appears to be part of the human experience."

Interesting how many cultures accept gender variance. However, what none of them seem to believe is that these individuals have become members of the opposite sex to the one they were born.

@334bu

Interesting how many cultures accept gender variance. However, what none of them seem to believe is that these individuals have become members of the opposite sex to the one they were born.

Yes! This is exactly what I was coming to post.

And strangely, I doubt many would be lining up for some of the abhorrent treatment of females by some of their cultures either.

What I have yet to see is a convincing argument that gender identity isn't about stereotypes.

Gender is about stereotypes, therefore how can gender identity not be about stereotypes?

So it is correct to reject your attempt to frame this issue as if it only concerned post-op transsexuals. Your transmedicalist views are not only out of step with most trans rights organisations, but also the proposed legal reforms as well as the changing policies.

My views are not trans medicalist, I never said dysphoria or a desire for medical treatment was essential to being trans. I merely questioned the confidently given evidence free assertions about how most trans women were all too happy to keep their penis, and only whateveryoumadeupthatday% of trans women ever seek treatment.

Well there are some famous examples in European culture, there are also examples within some East African societies. And yes this could represent lesbians, it could represent trans men, or it could represent an idea of sex, sexuality and gender which is outside of our modern understanding.

Or in the case of Albanian sworn virgins in an extremely repressive society for women, quite possibly none of those things, just an escape from being a woman.

The assertions that most do keep their penis aren't "evidence free", however they may individually feel about that.

whateveryoumadeupthatday%

Why do you not accept the figures given by GIRES and FPFW?

What I have yet to see is a convincing argument that gender identity isn't about stereotypes.

Gender is about stereotypes, therefore how can gender identity not be about stereotypes?

Indeed. Of course it is about stereotypes. That's all it's about.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

intersex groups universally support Self ID.

I've yet to read this. But what I have read is intersex people repeatedly asking for their medical condition to be left out of other people's political arguments that are not relevant to, and do not affect, them. They have asked for the courtesy of the most basic modicum of respect. It hasn't been granted.

People with DSD have been extremely clear about their boundaries. Yet, no matter how many times they assert them, certain activists constantly ride over those boundaries and show zero respect for their requests.

They do exactly the same thing to women.

I've never read intersex people asking to be kept out of a discussion about the history of intersex treatment and how gender identity has influenced that. I've certainly never seen intersex people ask that the demands of intersex groups not be publicised.

I was referring to the Malta Declaration by the way, agreed by almost every intersex organisation in the world and which clearly states:

To ensure that sex or gender classifications are amendable through a simple administrative procedure at the request of the individuals concerned. All adults and capable minors should be able to choose between female (F), male (M), non-binary or multiple options. In the future, as with race or religion, sex or gender should not be a category on birth certificates or identification documents for anybody.

oiieurope.org/malta-declaration/

@OldCrone

whateveryoumadeupthatday%

Why do you not accept the figures given by GIRES and FPFW?

I accept the GIRES figures as the number of people who are gender incongruent to some degree, that is not the same as the number of trans women. Do I have to explain poodles and wolves to you again?

@littlbrowndog

I wish we could get more interesting and thought provoking posts

Jj you kind off stifle conversations on here. Tbh

I do whizz past what you post but I can see you just dulling what other people want to say and debate

Sometimes there’s a time to listen and find out what other people want to say

It’s not telling you to shut up it’s about you thinking that other women on here might want to say and be heard and to debate

Perhaps it's something to do with the culture of the boards that anyone who disagrees even slightly with a certain dozen or so posters gets pounced on with torrents of posts demanding they defend themselves and post loads of information to back them up - and then proceed to attack you further if you don't. I agree it hampers debate which is a great shame especially now this has moved outside of FWR.

I was referring to the GIRES figures in this post.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4158457-To-think-that-the-vast-majority-of-people-do-not-feel-they-have-a-gender-identity?msgid=104509610

I agree littlbrowndog. I get pretty sick of repeating myself to someone who can't be bothered to read the rest of the thread.

@OldCrone

I agree littlbrowndog. I get pretty sick of repeating myself to someone who can't be bothered to read the rest of the thread.

Its fucking boring

And it is a shame because there are some interesting things amongst the condescending, patronising, disingenuous crap