To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

I can’t have a gender identity as I don’t believe gender as a scientific fact where as sex is.
Nor is being a woman a feeling. It is again a scientific fact.
I am a woman because I was born to the female sex and am now an adult. I don’t feel like a woman. I am a woman as that is what biology has made me.
And how does one feel like a woman anyway? As women don’t all feel the same way. I am sure a butch lesbian and an Instagram trout pout barbie doll type have very different feelings yet they are both women.

The problem is the use of gender and it's conflation with sex. If people can be convinced that gender is more important than sex you can justify eg Health Boards policies ignoring Government guidelines about single sex provision ; policies where it is actually stated that male sex offenders might be put in female wards.

its

Hmm. I had assumed previously that [xxxx] was posting in good faith and was prepared for reasonable discussion. Having seen them misrepresent lie previous threads and be slippery and twisty on this thread, I won't be engaging any more.

As a general principle, I try not to engage with posts that aren't constructive in some way. I don't always succeed but I am getting better.

To clarify: I am not bothered about whether or not I agree with the sentiments being expressed in a post; rather, it is whether or not the post is informative / entertaining / thought-provoking etc. If it's not, I scroll by.

You're just making things up again. How on earth could you possibly know that. There are huge numbers of trans people on waiting lists for treatment and many more self medicating or raising funds to go private. It worries me that you're a teacher but seem quite happy to declare facts off the top of your head

Re the stats, we're going by what trans organisations say. Until they have the surgery, it's accurate. Most women simply don't want non op MTF trans people in their toilets and changing rooms because they consider them intact males, that's the only takeaway here.

Most people in the world believe in a God of some sort. I don't know if you have any religious beliefs but lots of people believing that TWAW (and to claim that they do is pretty dubious in itself) does not mean that an Adult Human Male is an Adult Human Female.

Quite.

Do you have evidence for this claim? Just because something is used as a slogan does not mean people believe it to be literally true.

The fact is, in the same poll jj is crowing about the verdict is:

No MTF trans people in female sports, almost unanimously

No support for legal sex self ID as proposed GRA reform

Overall no support for MTF trans people who have not had genital surgery in female toilets, including the overall sample and WOMEN OVERALL

No support for MTF trans people who have not had genital surgery in female changing rooms

Yet the majority of people, especially women were happy to parrot the TWAW mantra, when there was no implied cost to anyone.

So call me cynical, but that doesn't sound like many of them actually believe it. It's just something they say to be kind. And it is clearly only applicable "old school transsexuals" who have had a "sex change operation".

So it's funny to see jj using this poll.

I'm sure once people become more aware of trans lives and the effects of hormones etc then they will soften their views. There's an obvious trajectory.

Yeah yeah that's totally what's happening.

From reading the posts on this thread, it does seem that most people understandably don’t accept that their beliefs should be compelled. That should not be a part of a democratic society.

It is so disappointing that so many unions, employers and public service organisations have become so invested in compelling this belief in employees etc.

Many unions, GMB, UCU, Nursing and Midwifery Council, RCN etc etc. took it upon themselves without consulting their members - (correct me if I’m wrong but I know that some definitely didn’t) to respond to the government consultation on GRA reform (run by the Women and Equalities Select Committee, who are still trying to push self id through and are openly biased against women’s rights) in support of self id.

The government saying last September that they wouldn’t introduce self id was not accepted by these unions and employers and they are actively lobbying hard to get it introduced.

Unions are going down the route where, if there is a dispute at work about provision of single sex toilet facilities (under Health & Safety rules), they will not be supporting their members who want single sex provision.

Many unions have already refused to support women asserting their legal rights at work.

If you are in any of these unions and don’t support self id (and therefore compelled belief in gender identity), contact them and make your views known - because they may not be representing your best interests.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm sure once people become more aware of trans lives and the effects of hormones etc then they will soften their views. There's an obvious trajectory.

Yeah yeah that's totally what's happening.

Well quite. If that was the case, why was #NoDebate so vital.

The government saying last September that they wouldn’t introduce self id was not accepted by these unions and employers and they are actively lobbying hard to get it introduced.

And every representative poll ever done, including the one commissioned by Pink News in 2018, there is a resounding rejection of legal self ID. The public don't want it.

OldCrone
I'm not sure how many people realise that the vast majority of men who identify as transgender are not so much pre-op as never op. As in they're very happy with their male parts and have no intention of getting rid of them.

And say publicly that the very idea of surgery terrifies them.

Which is fine, but if they have a beard, wear a skirt, claim to be a lesbian and have intact male genitals, what they come over as being is not "trans" but "confused".

Also funny that all the penis owners who want to keep their bits are so keen to tell teenage females that trans=surgery...

@ArcheryAnnie

Quite a few of those detransitioners who were involved in starting organisations have since retransitioned and spoken out against the harm that came from gender critical ideology.

TBF I think this is complete bollocks.

Here's one: thatweirdolee.medium.com/im-a-trans-person-that-helped-found-a-detransition-advocacy-organization-57d18572be32

Here's another: kyschevers.medium.com/coming-out-5a99cb26b5b3

I tried holding onto to being a detrans woman long after I stopped feeling like one. I resisted being trans for a few years after my sense of gender started shifting because I was afraid it would turn my life upside down, that people would think I was nuts and that the community I helped create would reject me. For a good long stretch of time, I called my feelings of being trans “dysphoria” and treated them like a problem to be overcome, something to work through so I could go back to feeling like a woman again. But that didn’t work and gradually I came to accept these feelings and accept myself as a trans person.

Mumsnet FWR posters are not very representative

Yet, this poll and others on similar topics all sit around the same level!!

No..... not very representative.... of your OWN protective bubble it seems.

It is very representative of the women I know, some of which have trans family members and still agree that single spaces be preserved and women's rights continue to be maintained against those set on diluting them.

[quote OldCrone]There are huge numbers of trans people on waiting lists for treatment and many more self medicating or raising funds to go private.

But most self identified 'transwomen' keep their penis. Some facts and figures here for you: fairplayforwomen.com/penis/[/quote]
You said: As in they're very happy with their male parts and have no intention of getting rid of them.

You made that up. There has been no research that shows most trans women are very happy with their male parts. It's a complete fabrication.

As for FPFW they themselves acknowledge: There is no robust data on the number of trans people in the UK.

and

No one knows for sure how many transwomen keep their penis.

Of course this means you can cook the books, use different sets of figures to suit different arguments, conflate trans women with trans men and non binary people, chuck in a bit of speculation and come up with pretty much whatever figure you want. Which is how must of FPFW's 'facts' are concocted.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Also funny that all the penis owners who want to keep their bits are so keen to tell teenage females that trans=surgery...

That dissonance is very hard to work through isn't it? It is never about the girls and young women at all. Only about the males.

Of course this means you can cook the books, use different sets of figures to suit different arguments, conflate trans women with trans men and non binary people, chuck in a bit of speculation and come up with pretty much whatever figure you want. Which is how must of FPFW's 'facts' are concocted.

Or, you can just Google trans girls.

tell them you are gender fluid and then update your preferred pronouns every few days - you know fluid and all that.
They will be guaranteed to misgender you at some point at which point you can take offence and raise a complaint :-)

Wait till you start having meeting and as well as introducing yourself and telling everyone what you do, you'll be expected to share your preferred pronouns with everyone too

Here's one: thatweirdolee.medium.com/im-a-trans-person-that-helped-found-a-detransition-advocacy-organization-57d18572be32

Here's another: kyschevers.medium.com/coming-out-5a99cb26b5b3

The first link is to someone who helped to set up a detransitioners network, but identifies as trans, not as a detransitioner.

The second one goes into a lot of detail about the person's feelings about their 'gender', but I can't see anything which backs up the claim that such people have 'spoken out against the harm that came from gender critical ideology.'

As an aside, the first link is useful for highlighting the effects of testosterone on a female body, including eyesight damage, which I was unaware of.

@Datun

Pretty much all the women I know support trans inclusion.

Are these the same women who you know, who, when confronted with a male in the spaces where they are vulnerable, naked, etc, you said would have no hesitation in punching said men?

Those women?

I grew up in rough farming territory and to 'fend' for myself. I also grew up knowing that if you punched 'said men', you'd better either be able to fucking run faster than them, if there was anywhere to run or knock them out or worse. Because even jumping into a car and driving away meant there was little escape.

Whenever I am reminded that j j has said this, I wonder exactly what message they are trying to push. Because, that reality is not the reality that I grew up with at all. Maybe the men were no where near as strong as the farmers I grew up with, and being a farm kid, I was also fit and strong too.

But.... crack on with that line. I have seen more than once. I am sure that you only meant to relay how easily you perceive some women can defend themselves. Because, I fucking wish I could have just 'punched' said men to get them to leave me alone.

conflate trans women with trans men and non binary people

As trans organisations did in their submission to the government Trans Equality Inquiry. As Stonewall do. Take it up with them.

Or, you can just Google trans girls.

Because trans sex work websites are the perfect place to find a representative sample of trans women. Just like pornhub is the best place to learn about what women are like.

I've said it before, but what a state.