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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

999 replies

Galvantulang · 06/02/2021 21:49

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one? Confused

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Datun · 09/02/2021 00:01

Seems to be mostly old Tories, and predominantly men that pulled the figures down. This must be the only feminist movement in history whose biggest supporters are old Tory men.

Got that women?

Jj thinks women they don't have a mind of their own and that their preferences for single sex spaces are the result of being told what to do by men. And men that jj has zero respect for, at that.

Good to know.

Datun · 09/02/2021 00:05

No, I don't necessarily think the majority opinion is the right one, the majority were against gay rights once. I just think it's interesting how in every poll I've ever seen gender critical arguments are supported by more men than women.

Wrong. Again.

To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/02/2021 00:05

Also just another reminder that WOMEN OVERALL in the poll said no to non op MTF trans people in women's toilets and changing rooms. Not just men, old Tories, whatever.

ArcheryAnnie · 09/02/2021 00:43

Quite a few of those detransitioners who were involved in starting organisations have since retransitioned and spoken out against the harm that came from gender critical ideology.

TBF I think this is complete bollocks.

Datun · 09/02/2021 00:50

@VPNine

Pretty much all the women I know support trans inclusion. Mumsnet FWR posters are not very representative

Well I certainly respect and support trans people as long as my own rights are respected in return. I don't know what FWR means but there is a strong feeling of anger towards women in some of these posts and I fear that 'respect' is not reciprocated, at least not here, not today.

FWR stand for Feminism and Women's Rights.

(It's the old name for Feminist Chat on here. It seems to have stuck.)

So jj appears to be saying women supporting women's rights are wrong to not be including males in spaces where women are naked or vulnerable.

🙄

jj1968 · 09/02/2021 01:43

@Datun

No, I don't necessarily think the majority opinion is the right one, the majority were against gay rights once. I just think it's interesting how in every poll I've ever seen gender critical arguments are supported by more men than women.

Wrong. Again.

Sorry, I should have clarified I meant polls carried out with adequate matching etc, not polls conducted on an internet forum that's world famous for its transphobia.
ArcheryAnnie · 09/02/2021 01:51

jj you post stuff that most women here know isn't true, because they've experienced it first hand. (Eg the "forgiving" nonsense.) Why do you bother? Do you just enjoy gaslighting, or what?

jj1968 · 09/02/2021 01:55

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Also just another reminder that WOMEN OVERALL in the poll said no to non op MTF trans people in women's toilets and changing rooms. Not just men, old Tories, whatever.
But overwhelming support for post op, that's v encouraging, and somewhat out of line with the gender critical position. I'm sure once people become more aware of trans lives and the effects of hormones etc then they will soften their views. There's an obvious trajectory.

I think what's most encouraging is that five years of anti trans campaigning, when you've had the wind in your sails with everyone from Trump to Putin to Murdoch to the Pope squarely on your side, has barely made a dent in public support for trans people. Most people think trans women are women and trans men are men, something that would have been unimaginable when I was young. It's reassuring that sometimes even the most powerful men in the world cannot always create the changes in society they wish to see.

OldCrone · 09/02/2021 02:02

But overwhelming support for post op

Who are what? 5% of mtf trans people?

I'm not sure how many people realise that the vast majority of men who identify as transgender are not so much pre-op as never op. As in they're very happy with their male parts and have no intention of getting rid of them.

OldCrone · 09/02/2021 02:12

Most people think trans women are women and trans men are men

Really? You think that most people believe that people can change sex?

Isn't 'transwomen are women' often followed by 'except for relationship purposes'?

And I remember Owen Jones's reaction when asked if, as a gay man, he would consider having sex with a transman with a vagina. (He wouldn't and he thought the question was homophobic IIRC).

So even some of the most vocal TRAs don't really believe TWAW and TMAM.

jj1968 · 09/02/2021 02:15

@OldCrone

But overwhelming support for post op

Who are what? 5% of mtf trans people?

I'm not sure how many people realise that the vast majority of men who identify as transgender are not so much pre-op as never op. As in they're very happy with their male parts and have no intention of getting rid of them.

You're just making things up again. How on earth could you possibly know that. There are huge numbers of trans people on waiting lists for treatment and many more self medicating or raising funds to go private. It worries me that you're a teacher but seem quite happy to declare facts off the top of your head.
ArcheryAnnie · 09/02/2021 02:16

Most people think trans women are women and trans men are men

This is a meaningless statement when there isn't any definition of trans, and "most people" erroneously think trans people have transitioned, and don't understand that a transwoman can be - and in the vast majority of cases is - completely intact.

Datun · 09/02/2021 02:16

Most people think trans women are women and trans men are men,

Of course they don't. Jeez. Try asking a random sample what a female penis is!

ArcheryAnnie · 09/02/2021 02:18

How on earth could you possibly know that.

Because so many of them tell us, again and again and again, often with accompanying photographic evidence of how much they love their penises.

Datun · 09/02/2021 02:22

Sorry, I should have clarified I meant polls carried out with adequate matching etc, not polls conducted on an internet forum that's world famous for its transphobia.

On an Internet forum that is populated almost exclusively by women, many of whom are parents, and thousands of whom are currently watching you refuse to take no for an answer.

OldCrone · 09/02/2021 02:36

There are huge numbers of trans people on waiting lists for treatment and many more self medicating or raising funds to go private.

But most self identified 'transwomen' keep their penis. Some facts and figures here for you: fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

notyourhandmaid · 09/02/2021 02:37

"Most people think trans women are women and trans men are men"

Do you have evidence for this claim? Just because something is used as a slogan does not mean people believe it to be literally true. Supporting the right of someone to express themselves as they want doesn't mean that people believe there are no significant differences between transwomen and women - including the obvious biological, material differences but also in terms of lived experience and treatment by the world.

A very good example of the latter is how the idea of 'gender identity' disproportionately impacts women's issues. Women are rebranded as 'people with a cervix', 'menstruators', etc by charities, health care providers, and more. Men are not referred to as 'people with a penis', people with a prostrate', 'ejaculators', by these organisations - they are simply 'men'. For women who are aware of this imbalance, it is one of many occasions where they find that the world prioritises men over them, and this is a discrimination that is based on sex, not gender identity.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 09/02/2021 03:15

"Most people think trans women are women and trans men are men"

What a load of shite. Most people will not believe an adult male is a woman.
They might pretend and smile because if they don't they could lose their fucking jobs but they all know it's quite literally bollocks.

NinaMimi · 09/02/2021 05:56

I think the fact that no one can state clearly what gender identity is, is telling in itself. I’ve read numerous different definitions and even supporters trip themselves up and sound like idiots. I can’t remember who but I just had to laugh when this supporter (female/not trans) said she didn’t know what made her a woman she just knew she was one lol. You have to get tangled up in such silliness to be a supporter of gender identity.

Perhaps because I’m atheist and I don’t believe in souls that I see the body as key to my existence but to believe in a gender identity is to believe you can be a woman or man apart from the body. And that it’s as undefinable as a soul.

longwayoff · 09/02/2021 07:19

I'm very glad I took early retirement and didn't have to put up with such invasive questions from employers. We'd be falling out over where the line should be drawn between employers and employees, which is well above the waist.

gardenbird48 · 09/02/2021 08:10

[quote OldCrone]There are huge numbers of trans people on waiting lists for treatment and many more self medicating or raising funds to go private.

But most self identified 'transwomen' keep their penis. Some facts and figures here for you: fairplayforwomen.com/penis/[/quote]
Indeed, a number of the requests for money recently by make videoed transgender people are to fund facial feminisation surgery - not ‘bottom surgery’. So they are changing their appearance to pass better but deciding to retain their male body parts.

Can anyone see any risks that this could introduce?

gardenbird48 · 09/02/2021 08:15

Sorry, I should have clarified I meant polls carried out with adequate matching etc, not polls conducted on an internet forum that's world famous for its transphobia.

As you have advised many times jj, if you see any transphobia on here please report it. No one wants transphobia on here.

What would be nice is to be able to discuss issues pertinent to our lives without being constantly accused of transphobia.

picklemewalnuts · 09/02/2021 08:29

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WeAreJackieWeaver · 09/02/2021 08:36

"Most people think trans women are women and trans men are men"

No they don’t because they’re no proof of gender identity, it’s just a set of beliefs. Anyone is welcome to believe this nonsense, just like they’re welcome to believe in a god. But many many people don’t believe in unscientific BS.

MissingLinker · 09/02/2021 08:48

Most people in the world believe in a God of some sort. I don't know if you have any religious beliefs but lots of people believing that TWAW (and to claim that they do is pretty dubious in itself) does not mean that an Adult Human Male is an Adult Human Female.