To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

So they don't actually think they are women, jj. It's just something people say. Until they see the problems.

Or perhaps they are more capable of nuance and compromise then many in the GC movement seems to be.

Are you sure everyone knew what 'transgender women' meant in that poll jj? Because I'm sure most people who don't know much about this would think it meant a woman who was transgender, that is, a female person. I've seen lots of comments online where people seem to think that's what it means - and it is a more logical definition of course.

And about 25% of people either don't know the answer or are too scared to give one because they're afraid of being accused of wrongthink.

I'm not convinced people are terrified of being accused of wrongthink in an anonymous poll.

From the same poll, you'll no doubt have noted the overall consensus that MTF trans people who had not had gender reassignment surgery should not be in women's toilets and changing rooms? Only disagreed with by 18-24 year olds and Labour supporters, I think?

Was that the same pole where pretty much 100% of men of all ages said no way to letting anyone with a penis in female only spaces? Because men also know that people with a penis demanding access to female only spaces where women and children are most vulnerable is a bad idea.

Oh dear, jj1968. I'm saying that several posters reminded you what the OP was arguing about and you call that untrue - without evidence. And then you resort to making a completely irrelevant point about one poster objecting to your proposal to change all single-sex changing rooms into unisex cubicles because it costs money. And according to your later comments on that thread this proves that we're all lying when we say we support third spaces. Honestly

We can all see the thread. Everyone of us. Here it is:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4156118-AIBU-to-think-there-s-benefits-to-communal-changing-rooms

As for Muslim women (so that jj1968 doesn't claim we do not care again), I'll just say that everyone could look up the rules of Islam in regard to nudity around female family members, other Muslim women and non-Muslim women. What they all have in common is that no Muslim woman should ever look at the private parts of another female nor show her own. She is required to avert her eyes and to keep her private parts covered. She is not required to avoid the presence of women in a state of undress. If she accidentally sees a naked woman, this is not classed as a sin. Given how modest many British women are, it is unheard of for public changing rooms in the UK to be full of naked women confidently strutting about the place in all their glory. Most women are very discreet, making it easy for a Muslim woman to follow the rules of her religion.

HTH

That's some ratio here in the vote though isn't it? Is that just old Tory men? The old Tory men of AIBU.

You'd be funny if your argument wasn't that womern aren't allowed to say no to you.

@jj1968

I'm not convinced people are terrified of being accused of wrongthink in an anonymous poll.

YouGov polls online only those who are registered. And it's well known that telephone polls struggle with that issue (on all kinds of subjects).

And as if to prove my point here's a survey with a ridiculously rigged question

Sorry what is rigged about asking whether male humans with intact genitalia should share intimate spaces with members of the female sex in a questionnaire about allowing males into female spaces.

Or perhaps they are more capable of nuance and compromise then many in the GC movement seems to be.

So you're fine with non op MTF trans people staying out of women's single sex spaces then? Along with the wishes of everyone else?

There have been so many times when I have intended to write a post that I do emphasise with trans people. I don’t understand it, but I know quite a lot about not being comfortable in your old skin and I didn’t feel I fitted in anywhere as a child and teen. And I start thinking about ways women could accommodate trans women without compromising single sex spaces.

But then there are always these posts about how trans women are women and that legislation needs to change, even though all discrimination against women is sex based.

And posts demanding access to changing rooms completely disregarding the scope of the trans umbrella which includes cross dressers and the fact that some women have expressed trauma or simply do not want to change next to biological males.

And then I think. No. No. No.

If penis people want to change in a female communal changing room I say no. If penis people think they are women it is up to them to show me why that is and how it would work. And...spoiler alert. Demanding access and throwing out dodgy statistics/data/reports is not the way to go. I don’t like to do what I am told and I resent the presumption that I am stupid.

My workplace asked us to add preferred pronouns on our email signature, I’m not doing it as I think you are either male or female , and I have noticed very few have adopted it so far.

Yes there's a bit of a way to go on that, but toilets was actually agreed with Lib Dems, Remainers, Labour, and 18-64 year olds as a whole.

No, not 18-64 year olds as a whole. 18-49 year olds. 50-64 overall reject it. Lib Dems

And intact males in female spaces was vetoed by the majority of women overall, whatever the momentum bros think about magnanimously giving away spaces that are nothing to do with them. So that's what actually counts.

Also, why not changing rooms, I wonder, which was almost unanimous, could it be that Helen Staniland was onto something?

And intact males in female spaces was vetoed by the majority of women overall

Female toilets

And...spoiler alert. Demanding access and throwing out dodgy statistics/data/reports is not the way to go. I don’t like to do what I am told and I resent the presumption that I am stupid.

The trouble is that this is not a reasonable request so most TRAs have no intention of doing anything other than demanding access. They don't care how you feel about it.

And as if to prove my point here's a survey with a ridiculously rigged question

Has 'rigged' been redefined as 'clear and explicit' now?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Or perhaps they are more capable of nuance and compromise then many in the GC movement seems to be.

So you're fine with non op MTF trans people staying out of women's single sex spaces then? Along with the wishes of everyone else?

No, I don't necessarily think the majority opinion is the right one, the majority were against gay rights once. I just think it's interesting how in every poll I've ever seen gender critical arguments are supported by more men than women.

Those numbers will shift soon enough given the age breakdown. In five years time it will look very different, in a decade I imagine support will be near universal.

No, I don't necessarily think the majority opinion is the right one

Except you do when it's people mouthing the TWAW mantra when they clearly don't actually mean it, that's convenient.

Has 'rigged' been redefined as 'clear and explicit' now?

Apparently so, Errol.

The world's gone bloody mad.

Those numbers will shift soon enough given the age breakdown.

Not for changing rooms, it looks like? The cut off is 24, plus Labour voters. That's all the support.

Pretty much all the women I know support trans inclusion. Mumsnet FWR posters are not very representative

Well I certainly respect and support trans people as long as my own rights are respected in return. I don't know what FWR means but there is a strong feeling of anger towards women in some of these posts and I fear that 'respect' is not reciprocated, at least not here, not today.

"I don't necessarily think the majority opinion is the right one, the majority were against gay rights once. I just think it's interesting how in every poll I've ever seen gender critical arguments are supported by more men than women."

Wasn't aware that gay men wanted to access spaces designated for the opposite sex, a sex particularly vulnerable to male violence because they are physically smaller and weaker.

Hm, I imagine that in a decade, a lot of those young people will have grown up, and most of the young women will have learned the unfortunate reality that sexism still exists, and it's firmly about sex not 'gender identity'.

Those numbers will shift soon enough given the age breakdown. In five years time it will look very different, in a decade I imagine support will be near universal.

Are you expecting all the old witches to be dead by then, or do you have something else in mind?

Good point OldCrone