To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

Man, I feel like a woman.
Dum Dum da Dum da Dum.

@AndreaMartelsCoat

Girl/woman/boy/man are all nouns aren't they? They are words to describe the age and sex of the person, they are not a gender

This makes sense.

@Lifeinaonesie

With home schooling, childcare, full time job and cleaning the bloody house I don't have much time to ponder or care whether my downstairs bits align with my preference to watch bridgerton over football.

Just another point on this (sorry @Lifeinaonesie and again I'm not really addressing you directly).

Let's assume there's a bloke in this scenario, sat on his arse watching telly whilst a woman runs round cleaning and looking after the kids. Does he have a gender? Does he have a gendered identity? Does he get to opt out of that whilst still retaining all the privileges of his gender?

I think too often when discussing gender the focus is on the female/feminine because male/masculine is seen as default. But most men can't even be asked to hold a handbag in public without having a crisis of masculinity. That is gender. Most men would never in a million years wear a dress or typically feminine outfit unless it was as a joke. That is gender too.

I find it absolutely infuriating when someone lke say Graham Lineham declares they are gender free or don't have a gender. This is a man who physically presents as a man perfectly, who will never be called poof or tranny or have some creepy pervert follow him home. He has worked in a typically male profession which many women are excluded from or undermined in - see the thread on the list of top comedians in FWR. He's into computer games and porn (not anymore he claims cos he has to) and if the amount of time he spent on twitter is anything to go by doesn't spend a lot of time looking after his kids. He behaves in the most appallingly patronising way towards women who disagree with him. He is a perfectly gendered heterosexual male in a society which doesn't require all men to be Rambo but just sufficiently gendered to maintain the system of gender. He is a heterosexual white male from a wealthy background with all the social privileges that come from that and yet he gets to declare himself gender free - meaning he gets to pretend he's never benefitted from his gender and so of course never has to question his behaviour. Fuck that. If the rhetoric of 'gender free' leads to masculine, male-identified men getting to enjoy all the privileges that brings them in a gendered world and gives them the means to deny that privilege in the name of feminism by claiming they don't have a gender then something has gone very wrong.

The fact that most people voting say they don’t have a gender gives me hope although sadly I think if we asked 14-25 year olds, the vote would look very different. It’s frightening how quickly younger people have been brainwashed into this. I’m very glad my kids think it’s bullshit.
You are a certain sex, you just are that. Anything else is just personality, likes and dislikes, preferences all of which are good. Stereotypes are bullshit and very damaging to the whole of society but especially children.

Good post jj1968

Gender stereotypes = problem.

Males being in power = also a problem.

Accepting gender identity is a thing = not a solution. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Forgot to @jj1968

I literally cannot think of any scenario in life where gender is a more appropriate word than sex. Unless we're talking about ridiculous societal expectations. Otherwise it's just not required.

If you are male and wish to present as a woman that's all good and I wish you well. Any suggestion I then alter my language or make exemptions that compromise the safety or dignity of another human female will be met with firm resistance.

Gender really isn't a thing and I'm sick of it being used as a excuse or pass for entitled behaviour.

I think too often when discussing gender the focus is on the female/feminine because male/masculine is seen as default. But most men can't even be asked to hold a handbag in public without having a crisis of masculinity. That is gender. Most men would never in a million years wear a dress or typically feminine outfit unless it was as a joke. That is gender too.

So why are shining examples of non conformity with narrow ‘gender’ expectations implied by their birth sex like the bebearded ‘lesbian’ Stonewall ambassador Alex Drummond not ‘expanding the bandwidth’ of being a man? Instead of translating Alex’s gender non conformity to mean that Alex must be a woman?

If you are concerned with the constraints of ever narrowing gender stereotyping on people why don’t you fight against them instead of using that as a justification to co opt an identity of being the opposite sex?

As I said previously, it is going backwards - all the gains made by the ‘gender benders’ in the 80s and 90s in breaking down the stereotypes are being thrown away and we are whizzing back to the 1950s.

Fight against it jj, not for it.

Thanks for the discussion everyone. I've refined my opinion on this subject because of this thread.

Thank goodness Mumsnet didn't delete it. I'm getting fed up with good conversations disappearing on this forum.

Graham denies he has a gender, not his sex. From what I have seen he fully recognises the privilege his sex has bought him.
You're either deliberately or unintentionally conflating gender with sex to make it seem like gender is progressive, when it's not. It's a way to ensure everyone stays in their stereotype box.

I think the whole concept it limiting. Why would anyone try to fit themselves into a concept that has nothing to do with biology?

It seems like some nutters (looking at you BBC) now try to solve that problem by claiming that there are about a 100 different genders. It is insane.

I spend my time trying to encourage my children to find out what they like and don’t like, to discover who they are as little people. I don’t want them to think that they have to fit into some stupid, conceptual boxes.

The one thing we do put emphasis on is the fact that boys go through male puberty which means that our son will be physically stronger than his sisters. That is why he needs to be gentle with girls already now. I talk to my oldest about the differences in physical capacity between boys and girls after puberty (she is very into sports and I want her to know why boys on average suddenly will be faster and stronger than than the average girl ).

Yes unless you have a reason to want to be perceived as the opposite sex, why not say I'm a man/woman, fuck it I'll "present" how I want.

If there was more of that "gender bending" now instead of definition bending I feel we'd be in a better place.

I've not RTFT so apologies if this point has been made (I will read it, just a busy day), but I have noticed in my large public sector organisation, and other external emails I receive, it is almost all females stating their genders. Be that trans or otherwise, I don't always know. I've seen quite a few women adopt this practice but very, very few men, if any. I don't have any data to confirm this but it is what I have noticed. I'm all for people identifying as they wish (access to women only sports and some services notwithstanding), but this feels like an example of women making the effort to accommodate with men not really matching it.

I'm a season ticket holder at a premier league club and have been going to see them play for 50 years. I also watch many other sports. As I get older (apologies if this is TMI), I sometimes don't have a choice in preventing myself burping or farting out loud. I also no longer menstruate. I don't feel like a woman I just am a woman. An adult human female. Possibly not one that many would want to spend time with in a confined space but it doesn't mean I'm acting like a man.

The Linnehan example is interesting - thanks jj. Your argument is that he's "gender conforming" I guess.
However this only seems to reinforce the notion that gender is how you appear and whether you spend your time doing traditionally masculine or feminine things.

Is there any concept of gender that isn't otherwise described by "masculine" or "feminine " or are we essentially talking about the same thing when we use those words?

@TheBuffster

Graham denies he has a gender, not his sex. From what I have seen he fully recognises the privilege his sex has bought him. You're either deliberately or unintentionally conflating gender with sex to make it seem like gender is progressive, when it's not. It's a way to ensure everyone stays in their stereotype box.

I'm absolutely not trying to make gender seem progressive, I would have thought that was very clear from my posts. I want to abolish gender, as do many other trans people.

It's also interesting that you say he gets to declare himself gender-free. Do you think it's some sort of benefit or privilege to be able to say your gender identity is whatever you choose it to be? Or do you mean that people are compelled to act as if it's true if he claims it?
If he suddenly started wearing wrap dresses would you think differently about his gender?

Not trying to catch you out, I'm honestly trying to work out where clothes etc come into it.

@TheBuffster

Graham denies he has a gender, not his sex. From what I have seen he fully recognises the privilege his sex has bought him. You're either deliberately or unintentionally conflating gender with sex to make it seem like gender is progressive, when it's not. It's a way to ensure everyone stays in their stereotype box.

But those privileges aren't inherent to his sex, they are a consequence of gender. His (somewhat dissipated) talent for writing comedy has nothing to do with his genitals neither does the fact he prospered in that role when someone with different genitals might not have done.

What the hell with the rant against Graham Lineham??

He is a heterosexual white male from a wealthy background with all the social privileges that come from that and yet he gets to declare himself gender free - meaning he gets to pretend he's never benefitted from his gender and so of course never has to question his behaviour. Fuck that. If the rhetoric of 'gender free' leads to masculine, male-identified men getting to enjoy all the privileges that brings them in a gendered world and gives them the means to deny that privilege in the name of feminism by claiming they don't have a gender then something has gone very wrong

Why, how, what? Who could people possibly be angry at GL for goodness sakes, and so furiously, when others are free to call themselves any one or more of a hundred genders? He rejects a gender-- ok. So do a lot of people. A lot of targeted hate went into that rant, very odd.

Quaagars
YABU.
I'm not trans, but I do have a very strong sense of being female regardless of what my sex is, or my personality is despite what people try to make me feel on here.
It's just there.
No, I can't describe it.

I feel the same. I haven't always, but I find as I age (47) I 'feel' more and more a woman. I don't know if it's also a reaction to the fact I had a hysterectomy a few years ago now (Cancer of the womb lining.) and often see, 'Well a woman has a uterus...' Etc. I don't know. I just know I'm a woman. Can't explain atm more than that really.

@DialSquare

I'm a season ticket holder at a premier league club and have been going to see them play for 50 years. I also watch many other sports. As I get older (apologies if this is TMI), I sometimes don't have a choice in preventing myself burping or farting out loud. I also no longer menstruate. I don't feel like a woman I just am a woman. An adult human female. Possibly not one that many would want to spend time with in a confined space but it doesn't mean I'm acting like a man.

I could squeeze you. Someone else that accidently burps and farts (I'm fine with the bladder though, you?). In fact my role model recently has become Homer Simpson (Not joking) as I identify with him. Like I said in my previous post, I don't have periods either as have had a hysterectomy. I don't watch sport though, unless you count wrestling or the odd tennis match.

So, unless I've missed something, so far in this thread the people who experience gender allude to it being some function of what you wear and do, and one says it is indescribable.
Are these adequate bases on which to change references in UK law to "sex" to be replaced with "gender", which seems to be uncategorisable, unverifiable, and/or able to be changed?

Can you think of any unintended consequences of this?
Should it be in the same sort of league as religious belief, if not everyone can conceive of it or define it?
Just thinking out loud really.

Yes I have the bladder issues too. What joy! Just reinforces the fact I have no choice in being a woman. I could identify as a man but that wouldn't stop any leakages.

If this thread makes one thing very clear, it's how unclear the definitions of terms are.

Which doesnt' matter that much in the everyday, sex and gender have been used as synonyms for a long time.

But it really, really DOES matter when the terms are being used in legislation and policy - we have to define 'sex' and 'gender' and 'female' and 'male' very, very clearly if we want to protect women's rights.