To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

E.g.
"what gender is the baby?" "He's a boy." Fine.

But it just doesn’t mean this. It doesn’t mean anything, but it doesn’t mean this.

I don't say gender is a social construct. I say gender is simply another linguistic marker.

I say gender is a social construct. You may disagree but it is not "simply another linguistic marker". It's obfuscatory because it can be used in several different ways, and one of them, very commonly, is as a synonym for "gender identity".

History of the change in use.

"History of the concept
The concept of gender, in the modern sense, is a recent invention in human history.[14] The ancient world had no basis of understanding gender as it has been understood in the humanities and social sciences for the past few decades.[14] The term gender had been associated with grammar for most of history and only started to move towards it being a malleable cultural construct in the 1950s and 1960s.[15]

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[1][2] For example, in a bibliography of 12,000 references on marriage and family from 1900–1964, the term gender does not even emerge once.[1] Analysis of more than 30 million academic article titles from 1945–2001 showed that the uses of the term "gender", were much rarer than uses of "sex", was often used as a grammatical category early in this period. By the end of this period, uses of "gender" outnumbered uses of "sex" in the social sciences, arts, and humanities.[2] It was in the 1970s that feminist scholars adopted the term gender as way of distinguishing "socially constructed" aspects of male–female differences (gender) from "biologically determined" aspects (sex).[2]

In the last two decades of the 20th century, the use of gender in academia has increased greatly, outnumbering uses of sex in the social science"

All went wrong in the 80s 😂

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But I also don't mind my sex being female and my gender being woman. It amounts to the same damn thing.

It does to you. But people will think you mean you are saying are a (apologies for the term) "cis woman" because you've not made a distinction between biological sex, and the social construct which is "gender".

I've got you now.

But this also makes me so sad. It shows the TRAs are winning the linguistic battle ground because we now don't want to use the term "gender" as it looks like we're playing the same game as them.

Bloody awful stuff.

YANBU.

I have a sex (female) but no gender identity.

If I were to fill out a form that asked my gender I'd have no problem filling it out

Whereas I do. Because I don't believe I have one. I'm female. I'm a woman. Woman just means an adult female.

Ach I think I copied the wrong bit that mentioned the 80s. #fail

Never mind.

But this also makes me so sad. It shows the TRAs are winning the linguistic battle ground because we now don't want to use the term "gender" as it looks like we're playing the same game as them.

I don’t use it because I rarely have use for it. My sex = female. I grew up, making me a woman. I don’t need the word gender unless I am talking about behaviour and socially constructed stereotypes (conforming to gender roles). Nothing to do with what I “am”.

But this also makes me so sad. It shows the TRAs are winning the linguistic battle ground because we now don't want to use the term "gender" as it looks like we're playing the same game as them.

Yes and I agree. But we need to put clear water between sex and gender, in the way that many people understand the term as some sort of magical essence of being a woman that some men can have.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If I were to fill out a form that asked my gender I'd have no problem filling it out

Whereas I do. Because I don't believe I have one. I'm female. I'm a woman. Woman just means an adult female.

But pre 1980s (according to PPs research) you wouldn't have given it another thought. You're only worrying about it now because the TRAs are winning the linguistic battle ground.

Fuck them. My sex is female and my gender is woman. They are one and the same thing. It feels inhuman to me to only have a "sex". I'm not a chicken getting sorted on a conveyor belt.

It's all essentially moot possibly because we agree on the fundamentals. I just lament the erasure of certain words because the TRAs have soiled them.

I wonder how many of their grandparents, presuming they were white, would have insisted they didn't have a race.

Maybe it's because I'm American, but I don't know anyone who insisted they don't have a race. One of my mother's favourite sayings was "I'm free, White, and over 21, and I can do what I want." She's actually mixed race (as are all my grandparents, mostly American Indigenous and European) and was fully aware of that - she would call me a mongrel (I'm far darker) and discuss how the family is a 'Heinz 57' among other race-related topics - but she loudly identified as White. That's how she saw herself and how some people saw her even though she didn't view her family that way. Race identity can be complicated, even for those who are viewed as White.

If you don't feel discomfort with the sexed aspects of your body, or cringe a bit inside if someone refers to you using pronouns and language which places you in a gendered role you don't feel fits you then congratulations, your gender identity probably matches your physical sex so you have probably never really thought much about gender identity and don't think you have one.

I have 'cringed inside' by being referred to in the feminine, but much like my previous post about issues with being spoken about in the masculine, the underlying issue wasn't how I was gendered, it was hostility (whether active as I described or that I felt was coming from being seen as feminine). I've had distress at some of my sex characteristics because of my distress at the threats that come from being identified, not because of who I am or what I 'have' in my mind.

I really dislike being told that I must have this identity inside myself when that view was absolutely terrible for my wellbeing - the best thing for me has been grounding myself in a social rather than individualistic view of identity even when having wrestled with this myself which goes well beyond 'discomfort' or 'cringe'. I find ideological spaces where who I am should defines how I feel about something and how I feel about something defines who I am very harmful (and I find how social construct has been butchered into 'however you feel about it goes' really annoying, I have been tempted to write more on it but not sure my sanity will take it).

I do correct people on my name largely when they use similar English names in place of my actual non-English name as I've found that at times hostile/othering/a social reflection on 'foreign' names. I don't went people take one of my work 'names' (I have multiple professional names, one is my initials + surname, but my initials can spell out a name) and replace the initials with the name because there is no hostility there.

No before the 80s they didn't mean the same thing. You've got it backwards now.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But this also makes me so sad. It shows the TRAs are winning the linguistic battle ground because we now don't want to use the term "gender" as it looks like we're playing the same game as them.

Yes and I agree. But we need to put clear water between sex and gender, in the way that many people understand the term as some sort of magical essence of being a woman that some men can have.

Do most people think this? I think most people are unaware of the battle that is being fought. I think if you asked most people they wouldn't pick up on any difference in meaning in the words "sex" and "gender". I hope the TRA movement hits a peak and fizzles out and most people who were oblivious to all this can go on being oblivious. Then we won't have to tie ourselves in knots over the difference or otherwise between sex and gender.

Apparently the term gender is used in Spain as in gender violence. In my view the term is used to obscure who is doing what to whom. I suspect in the old days it was used in the same way as sex, but somehow we are supposed to believe it’s an equally balanced phenomenon by its use today

@Lifeinaonesie

With home schooling, childcare, full time job and cleaning the bloody house I don't have much time to ponder or care whether my downstairs bits align with my preference to watch bridgerton over football.

I think this post is really pertinent and highlights one of the key things that underlies the current conflict over trans people. (and I don't mean to single you out @Lifeinaonesie just using it as a jumping off point really).

What's decribed in this post is a function of gender - not gender identity but gender as a system of patriarchal control. I think that most people reading that post would guess that the poster was phsyically female (why- because gender?) and the reason a large part of her life is spent cleaning and looking after kids is because that is how our gendered society is organised and it is very difficult to escape. gender is done to us as much as by us and for many people it manifests as oppression. I fully understand why it makes some women furious that they feel they are being asked to identify with that and I think it reveals that a lot of the language about this is inadequate.

To me gender identity and gender are very different, and for the vast majority of trans people gender identity is something which is experienced as a discordance between how we feel ourselves to be and how are sexed bodies actually are - that's why so many trans people seek to change their body. On top of this comes gender as a social construct. Some trans people might 'like' traditionally masculine or feminine activies or roles, or very much prefer a masculine or feminine aesthetic and if they have a more conservative view of gender may incorrectly assume that is somehow inherent to them as well.

On top of that trans people are likely to often be treated in a gendered role - including experiencing the oppression that comes from that, so this become socially reinforced. But I think that is different to our inner gender identity, which whilst almost certainly influenced by gendered society to the point that if gendered society disappeared so might gender identity, still feels very much an integral part of who we are if it happens to be in discordance with our physcal sex. Trans people feel wrong and feel that being the other sex, or perhaps placing themselves somewhere in betwen the sexes, would fix that feeling - and of course on top of that along comes gendered based society which we all have to navigate to some degree, our gender identities, if we feel we have them, our physical bodies and the social system of gender constantly collide often in highly personal ways that can be difficult to understand yet alone articulate. And this is why so often trans people and gender critical people seem to be completely talking past each other because they are often actually talking about very different things.

When a five year old physical female says she a boy, or vice versa, and keeps saying it, to the point that as soon as they get chance they may even begin to alter their physical body to make it closer to their desired sex then I think it's likely something is going on which is beyond something which can just be dismissed as a preference for gender stereotypes. I think it's probably something we don't fully understand yet but it is something that has manifested across different times and cultures and very much appears to be part of the human experience.

I cringe when I see people say ‘him/he or she/her’ on their email signature. I actually went to a webinar where the speaker said ‘Hi I’m XX pronoun he/him’ 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️ So weird!

I identify as Jeff Bezos but I’ve forgotten the login details to my bank account. I wonder how that would go down at the bank? 😂

@BigPaperBag

I cringe when I see people say ‘him/he or she/her’ on their email signature. I actually went to a webinar where the speaker said ‘Hi I’m XX pronoun he/him’ 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️ So weird!

Yep. I get a physical reaction when I see or hear it.

Unfortunately the use of gender instead of sex is very important to the TRA lobby. Just look how they tried to sneak it in into the Forensic Crimes Bill( Scotland) Only one brave Labour MSPs amendment and a backlash from For Women Scotland amongst others prevented women rape victims only being able to ask for same gender medical examiner's. The use of gender removing the safety of single sex exemptions in the Equality Act and perhaps allow a male who identified as a woman to be a same " gender " HCP. Fortunately the uproar in the press etc forced the woke SNP to very grudgingly vote for the amendment. The Greens and the Lib Dems actually voted against allowing women rape victims to ask for a female medical .examiner

@334bu

Unfortunately the use of gender instead of sex is very important to the TRA lobby. Just look how they tried to sneak it in into the Forensic Crimes Bill( Scotland) Only one brave Labour MSPs amendment and a backlash from For Women Scotland amongst others prevented women rape victims only being able to ask for same gender medical examiner's. The use of gender removing the safety of single sex exemptions in the Equality Act and perhaps allow a male who identified as a woman to be a same " gender " HCP. Fortunately the uproar in the press etc forced the woke SNP to very grudgingly vote for the amendment. The Greens and the Lib Dems actually voted against allowing women rape victims to ask for a female medical .examiner

Sneaking it in is exactly right. The stealth is frightening.

This thread has been an interesting discussion

I was, along with many friends and workmates a gender non conforming child who wished to be a boy for a good number of years. The difference to now being: no one told me that was possible.

I was allowed to play with, wear and do whatever activities I chose, by my parents anyway. Another different way that there were no aisles of "that's for girls" "that's for boys" colour coded toys.

No matter how a child feels about their body, surely lying to them about changing sex is not a healthy option.

Helping them come to terms with their sex and understand those feelings would surely be number 1.

Girl/woman/boy/man are all nouns aren't they? They are words to describe the age and sex of the person, they are not a gender

I don't 'feel' like a woman. I don't know what being a woman feels like. How do I know I'm a woman? Well I have boobs, a vagina, and I bleed every month.

Can someone explain what 'feeling' like a woman feels like? Does it mean I would want to wear lipstick and high heels? That I would cry over puppy videos and feel gooey over babies? I don't feel any of those things. Does that mean I'm not a woman?

Not that I feel like a 'man' either. I don't know what feeling like a man would feel like. I'm just me. Surely, saying people need to 'identify' as a gender is taking a massive step back in the fight for equality? We should just be people.

I was asked this on a work form very recently too, and found it really hard to answer. I'm female but I don't identify with feminine gender stereotypes, which I think is what they mean by asking me if I identify as a woman. I was also asked for my preferred pronouns, but I genuinely have no preference. People can call me she/her, they/them or he/him. I really don't mind. By being forced to pick one I feel like I'm being forced to align with something that just doesn't resonate with me at all.

TooMuchChocolateForDinner

Well, I do feel like a woman. Because I am one, so however I feel is feeling like a woman.