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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

999 replies

Galvantulang · 06/02/2021 21:49

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one? Confused

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
AStudyinPink · 07/02/2021 14:05

But it really, really DOES matter when the terms are being used in legislation and policy - we have to define 'sex' and 'gender' and 'female' and 'male' very, very clearly if we want to protect women's rights.

Or if we want to do anything. But sex, female and male have clear definitions. We all know them. It’s gender we need to define.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 07/02/2021 14:06

@DeaconBoo

Adding to your post, gender is also (according to jj) something trans people want to abolish.

I am just very confused Confused

Whatsnewpussyhat · 07/02/2021 14:09

He is a heterosexual white male from a wealthy background with all the social privileges that come from that and yet he gets to declare himself gender free - meaning he gets to pretend he's never benefitted from his gender and so of course never has to question his behaviour

Yet when males with all the social privileges that come from that get to suddenly declare themselves as women and get to pretend they have never benefited from their sex and tell us they are now the most oppressed person ever, we are not allowed to question their behaviour?

YouSetTheTone · 07/02/2021 14:10

@DeaconBoo I think it’s exactly like a religious belief. It’s based on a feeling, something intangible and unable to be backed up scientifically. Like a belief in transubstantiation.
Some people believe it and some people don’t. Basing legislation on it? - where’s the sense in that?
Religious beliefs are protected in the Equality Act but religious beliefs don’t supplant sex based rights do they?

MrsBrunch · 07/02/2021 14:11

Although are still excluded from primogeniture even if they identify as male.

TheBuffster · 07/02/2021 14:13

Except correct me if I'm wrong JJ, but I believe you were arguing trans women should have access to women's refuges based on their gender recently.

If you abolish gender they wouldn't be able to access it on this basis.

And no, I am discriminated against on basis of my sex not gender. Particularly in my 20s when I was passed over for jobs by male candidates less qualified than me because they were seen as a longer term investment because they wouldn't go off on maternity leave. Incidentally my last job asked me directly and I said I had no immediate plans. I got the job. Go figure.

People who say discrimination is mostly gender based have no idea what it's like to be discriminated against because of sex.

If it were that easy those Nepalese girls in period huts in Nepal would just identify out of their oppression, no?

ArabellaScott · 07/02/2021 14:14

sex, female and male have clear definitions. We all know them. It’s gender we need to define.

Yes, for sure, but often people use 'sex' where they mean 'gender' and vice versa, so we need to know exactly which one we're using and why.

jj1968 · 07/02/2021 14:15

@DeaconBoo

It's also interesting that you say he gets to declare himself gender-free. Do you think it's some sort of benefit or privilege to be able to say your gender identity is whatever you choose it to be? Or do you mean that people are compelled to act as if it's true if he claims it? If he suddenly started wearing wrap dresses would you think differently about his gender?

Not trying to catch you out, I'm honestly trying to work out where clothes etc come into it.

If he suddenly started wearing wrap dresses he might think differently about his gender because the social response to that would be very different from what he's used to. If a bunch of blokes started having a go at him for being effeminate or he was sexually assaulted then the gendered nature of society would suddenly become all too apparant. Gendered society doesn't care if you declare yourself gender free, it genders you anyway - gender is done to us as much if not more than it is done by us.

I think clothes and how we present ourselves to the world is an important aspect of socially produced gender because we will be treated differently according to how closely we conform to the expected gender presentation of our physical sex. It's interesting that 90% of people in the poll say they don't have a gender identity but walk down any High Street and you could easily ascertain the socially produced gender of 99% of people by their clothes, the bag they were carrying, the way the smell if they use scented products and a host of other subtle gendered cues. People may not feel they have a gender identity but will usually play along with gendered presentation even if that is solely down to the social pressure to do so. If they didn't - if everyone was gender-free as is often claimed- then how on earth could gender function as the tool used to maintain male dominance over women?

And I think this runs a little deeper than many would assume. I wonder how many gender critical feminists on here would feel comfortable going topless on a beach for example? Yet this is pretty normal even in some parts of Europe and there are ample examples of cultures where women have always gone bare breasted and it's completely normal. That discomfort comes from gender - and is oppressive - because our cultured gender roles mean that a woman who did that may be at risk of being assaulted, leered at, even potentially arrested if she did it on a busy High Street. And it's an aspec of gender which is near invisible - it's just normal that men can go topless and women can't - except it's not normal everywhere. That discomfort, fear or embarrassment (or lack of those things in males) that might come from being topless is clearly not something that is inherent to physical sex, because it is not universal to humans, it is socially produced. Once you really start to look then gender is everywhere and plays a huge role in how societies and our lives are shaped, to the detriment of women but also I'd say to the detriment of a lot of men, though to a much lesser extent. That's why I think we should get rid of it.

jj1968 · 07/02/2021 14:16

If you abolish gender they wouldn't be able to access it on this basis.

If we abolished gender then it's unlikely refuge's would need to exist because male violence towards women is a function of gender, not an inherent part of being human.

VPNine · 07/02/2021 14:18

@Whatsnewpussyhat

He is a heterosexual white male from a wealthy background with all the social privileges that come from that and yet he gets to declare himself gender free - meaning he gets to pretend he's never benefitted from his gender and so of course never has to question his behaviour

Yet when males with all the social privileges that come from that get to suddenly declare themselves as women and get to pretend they have never benefited from their sex and tell us they are now the most oppressed person ever, we are not allowed to question their behaviour?

This exactly. I completely failed to understand jj's point, unless it was that people should not be able to "hide" behind their gender declarations.
DeaconBoo · 07/02/2021 14:23

@jj1968

If you abolish gender they wouldn't be able to access it on this basis.

If we abolished gender then it's unlikely refuge's would need to exist because male violence towards women is a function of gender, not an inherent part of being human.

I strongly disagree that males abuse females because of the gender identity of either group. If one group wasn't physically stronger and was equally likely to get pregnant from unprotected sex the whole of human history would be different. But that's a bit of a tangent, as you know, jj...
TheBuffster · 07/02/2021 14:24

You can't eradicate sexism by ignoring it JJ, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

We are a long way off from not needing such provisions, sexism is rampant across the globe. Trying to dismantle sex based services now or even 50 years in the future is not possible. It's a breathtaking ignorance of safeguarding.

We'd all like to live in a violence free world. We can work towards it but it's not going to happen in our lifetimes. And tra are going about eradicating violence in the wrong way by posing with bats and giving women rape threats, if that really is their motive frankly it's a bizarre way to get things to a safer place.

You don't seem to realise that by eradicating gender, you'd also eradicate sex and thus women's ability to name their oppression.

BiBabbles · 07/02/2021 14:26

jj1968 Most dysphoric people don't seek to change our bodies, no matter how we identify. There have multiple studies on this, GIRES did a good summary for Parliament and it's less than 6% in the UK at the time had sought out medical treatment for this purpose, the highest they found in a country was 20% (I want to say Netherlands). There aren't any benefits to pushing that idea. We are a diverse group of people.

Yes, dysphoria comes from more than stereotypes, but the idea that it comes from something innate within us is an idea that not all of us agree with and doesn't bear out when we consider that gender dysphoria shows up in people with trauma disorders. That's been shown for decades, it was well recognized, it's why "best practice" is to assess for trauma and other mental health disorders prior to cross-sex hormone treatments because said treatments can be harmful and for some condition are listed as a contraindication for use in treatment. It's more complicated than just having those emotions, like our other senses, they can be fooled by biological and environmental factors.

Yeah, I can see why a man saying he doesn't have a gender while embodying his socially designated sex-role is infuriating and we do need to be able to discuss sex vs sex roles. It's become harder to use gender for the latter when people have made gender so individualized rather than social. When people say you have a gender, you have a gender identity, how is it expected people are going to react?

I find it infuriating when people say I must have a gender identity as prescribed by current gender ideology as something innate, something I have. All I hear is that they think they've got it all figured out about themselves so, using themselves as a model, they have to be applied to the rest of us. I hear that their ideas on identity are worth more than any of our current social theories and research on fluctuating perception of self and identity as socially derived. Hell, when cisgender moved out of academia into popular discussion, many of the people involved spoke about how important it was not to create another binary, how it had uses at a population level, but we had to be careful not to apply to every individual largely because it was acknowledged that not all dysphoric people identify as trans, not all cultures fit the Anglo set up that the social theories that started using it were looking into and not everyone views gender or identity the same way. Like many academic theories moved into the popular limelight, it got butchered and universalized into something it was never meant to be and I suspect like many things in the humanities in its current replication crisis, we're going to find the most individualistic areas of our Western society end up the outlier on a larger scale (I mean, it's pretty obvious by how much other cultures gender norms have been butchered by so many to fit into this).

I completely get and understand people framing their identity and self perception as they want, some do that with gender identity, some with religious identity, but applying it to the rest of us? I can't see the ethics in that. I see even less in trying to act like sex discrimination is all about gender.

If we abolished gender then it's unlikely refuge's would need to exist because male violence towards women is a function of gender, not an inherent part of being human.

And all the other animals where the stronger sex is regularly violent towards the weaker sex?

Honestly, I love the optimism, but sociobiology across species has shown that while some violent behaviours can be reduced through social means, there is no utopia where it can be eradicated.

Policy needs to deal with the reality, not what we wish humans could be like.

VPNine · 07/02/2021 14:27

If we abolished gender then it's unlikely refuge's would need to exist because male violence towards women is a function of gender, not an inherent part of being human

Wrong. Women are oppressed and subject to violence from men because of their sex. That cab driver who raped a transman did not care when told "Stop! I'm not a woman!" The transman was biologically a woman and the rapist took advantage on that basis. Sex not gender.

jellyfrizz · 07/02/2021 14:39

*I think clothes and how we present ourselves to the world is an important aspect of socially produced gender because we will be treated differently according to how closely we conform to the expected gender presentation of our physical sex. It's interesting that 90% of people in the poll say they don't have a gender identity but walk down any High Street and you could easily ascertain the socially produced gender of 99% of people by their clothes, the bag they were carrying, the way the smell if they use scented products and a host of other subtle gendered cues. People may not feel they have a gender identity but will usually play along with gendered presentation even if that is solely down to the social pressure to do so. If they didn't - if everyone was gender-free as is often claimed- then how on earth could gender function as the tool used to maintain male dominance over women?

And I think this runs a little deeper than many would assume. I wonder how many gender critical feminists on here would feel comfortable going topless on a beach for example? Yet this is pretty normal even in some parts of Europe and there are ample examples of cultures where women have always gone bare breasted and it's completely normal. That discomfort comes from gender - and is oppressive - because our cultured gender roles mean that a woman who did that may be at risk of being assaulted, leered at, even potentially arrested if she did it on a busy High Street. And it's an aspec of gender which is near invisible - it's just normal that men can go topless and women can't - except it's not normal everywhere. That discomfort, fear or embarrassment (or lack of those things in males) that might come from being topless is clearly not something that is inherent to physical sex, because it is not universal to humans, it is socially produced. Once you really start to look then gender is everywhere and plays a huge role in how societies and our lives are shaped, to the detriment of women but also I'd say to the detriment of a lot of men, though to a much lesser extent. That's why I think we should get rid of it.*

So, do we abolish gender by:

a) encouraging everyone to present as they wish whatever their sex and have protections from discrimination for this?
or
b) insist that people who do not wish to present as gender dictates are actually the opposite sex and only have protection from discrimination if they say they identify as something other than their sex?

jj1968 · 07/02/2021 14:41

I strongly disagree that males abuse females because of the gender identity of either group.
If one group wasn't physically stronger and was equally likely to get pregnant from unprotected sex the whole of human history would be different. But that's a bit of a tangent, as you know, jj...

This to me is really where I think gender critical feminism diverges from almost all feminism that has come before which very strongly rejects endemic male violence towards women as an inevitable consequnce of physical sex. If that is the case we are fucked as a society aren't we, and feminism just becomes about protecting women from this inevitable violence and of course policing the borders of womanhood - or for women to form their own female only communties in the mold of lesbian separatism - which I suspect is not that satisfactory for many women and comes with a whole host of other problems - what to do with male kids for example.

But the feminism of Dworkin and Firestone and many more first, second and third wave feminists called for us to go far beyond that, to recognise that women's oppression is not an inevitable consequence of her sex, it is chosen, by the men who benefit, reinforced by gender roles and can and should be overthrown.

jellyfrizz · 07/02/2021 14:41

Bold fail! Second time lucky. Bold quotes jj.

I think clothes and how we present ourselves to the world is an important aspect of socially produced gender because we will be treated differently according to how closely we conform to the expected gender presentation of our physical sex. It's interesting that 90% of people in the poll say they don't have a gender identity but walk down any High Street and you could easily ascertain the socially produced gender of 99% of people by their clothes, the bag they were carrying, the way the smell if they use scented products and a host of other subtle gendered cues. People may not feel they have a gender identity but will usually play along with gendered presentation even if that is solely down to the social pressure to do so. If they didn't - if everyone was gender-free as is often claimed- then how on earth could gender function as the tool used to maintain male dominance over women?

And I think this runs a little deeper than many would assume. I wonder how many gender critical feminists on here would feel comfortable going topless on a beach for example? Yet this is pretty normal even in some parts of Europe and there are ample examples of cultures where women have always gone bare breasted and it's completely normal. That discomfort comes from gender - and is oppressive - because our cultured gender roles mean that a woman who did that may be at risk of being assaulted, leered at, even potentially arrested if she did it on a busy High Street. And it's an aspec of gender which is near invisible - it's just normal that men can go topless and women can't - except it's not normal everywhere. That discomfort, fear or embarrassment (or lack of those things in males) that might come from being topless is clearly not something that is inherent to physical sex, because it is not universal to humans, it is socially produced. Once you really start to look then gender is everywhere and plays a huge role in how societies and our lives are shaped, to the detriment of women but also I'd say to the detriment of a lot of men, though to a much lesser extent. That's why I think we should get rid of it.

So, do we abolish gender by:

a) encouraging everyone to present as they wish whatever their sex and have protections from discrimination for this?
or
b) insist that people who do not wish to present as gender dictates are actually the opposite sex and only have protection from discrimination if they say they identify as something other than their sex?

MrsBrunch · 07/02/2021 14:42

@jj1968

If you abolish gender they wouldn't be able to access it on this basis.

If we abolished gender then it's unlikely refuge's would need to exist because male violence towards women is a function of gender, not an inherent part of being human.

Male violence towards women is a function of their sex, not gender.
DeaconBoo · 07/02/2021 14:46

This to me is really where I think gender critical feminism diverges from almost all feminism that has come before which very strongly rejects endemic male violence towards women as an inevitable consequnce of physical sex.

Just to clarify, yet again, i do not think male violence is inevitable, so you are completely incorrect about my beliefs there jj. I think males always have a choice. But it is indisputable that currently there is one group that physically harms and kills the other group and to pretend this distinction doesn't exist is absurd. As it is to say that feminists think nothing can be done about it Hmm

MrsBrunch · 07/02/2021 14:46

If women were vulnerable because of gender, every single woman would be able to stop violence towards her by simply saying, 'wait, I identify as male'. And he would stop immediately and say 'I beg your pardon sir'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2021 14:48

Do most people think this? I think most people are unaware of the battle that is being fought. I think if you asked most people they wouldn't pick up on any difference in meaning in the words "sex" and "gender".

I agree with you, but I didn't say "most", I said "many". I don't think we can afford obfuscation in this, it doesn't benefit women, it benefits people trying to remove women's rights under the radar and outside of public and media scrutiny.

jj1968 · 07/02/2021 14:49

And all the other animals where the stronger sex is regularly violent towards the weaker sex?

In our nearest relatives, Bonobos, the males are much larger than the females as with all other apes. But as far as we can tell from studying them the females are dominant over the males so I don't think the natural world always points to bigger and stronger being more dominant.

TheBuffster · 07/02/2021 14:49

GC rejects the idea of stereotypes. That's 'proper feminism'.
Gender ideology promotes stereotypes.
GC is therefore the way to abolish gender as gender ideology confirms it.
It really is that simple.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2021 14:50

Do you see the way certain posters on this thread are using gender as a synonym for sex so they appear to mean exactly the same thing when clearly they do not, where other posters quite clearly mean sex and are using the word sex?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2021 14:50

Sorry that was to PrawnPower