To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

I don't "identify" as anything. I am female. However, I think we may be missing a trick by overlooking they/them pronouns. In the same way that men get to be Mr, but women tend to get Miss/Mrs unless they specify Ms, then gender-neutral pronouns are an equaliser because they can apply equally to men and women.

We know that women get treated less favourably simply for being women so not advertising this fact may actually help (obviously I'm not talking about face to face meetings, but emails etc. where you don't know the other person).

They/them is used a lot online where you might be talking in a group with strangers and you can't tell from the name whether they're male or female. It's weird and jarring at first but does actually feel more equal. It just means no assumptions are made, particularly when it's something that's usually male-dominated. I think in this context it's a new "polite" usage.

I think you're confused.

Please read the bit I put earlier. Gender is not the same as sex. Babies have a sex when they're born, not a gender - because gender is a bunch of stereotypes.

@ContessaDiPulpo

I refuse to state my pronouns because it gives voice to the lie that gender is something we feel rather than being imposed on us in a patriarchal world.

I am going to use this if the topic comes up at work, thank you

I really identify with this. But equally I do feel if a woman wants to identify not as a woman. Or a man wants to identify as a woman that's OK. But I feel like the people here would say that you can't identify with this and feel that trans people can exist and feel how they do?

That was meant to quote @PrawnPower bit I messed it up.

Prawn, sex is your biological sex, determined by chromosomes and your sexed body. Gender is a theoretical term used to mean stereotypes of behaviour associated with and applied to sexes. The two terms are commonly conflated and confused but they do have distinct meanings. In everyday usage it often doesn't matter but the new genderist ideology is adding to the confusion by claiming sex is also a construct and/or a spectrum. The words matter when drawing up laws and policy, which is why the debate on, for example, replacing the word 'sex', which is straightforward, with 'Gender', which some people use to claim sex is changeable and choosable. Hope that means sense?

Feminists are 'gender critical' because they question sexist stereotypes.

@Plussizejumpsuit they can feel like that. However we're being asked to accept it as fact in many cases.

@Galvantulang

I think you're confused.

Please read the bit I put earlier. Gender is not the same as sex. Babies have a sex when they're born, not a gender - because gender is a bunch of stereotypes.

Isn't a male baby a boy? You don't need to buy into stereotypes to know that your child's gender is "boy" if he has a penis. I'm pregnant. If I have a girl I'm not going to say to people I have a " little female" her biological sex will be "female". Her gender will be "girl" because she's a human being.

You say gender comes with stereotypes. Buck the stereotypes rather than massacring the English language. That's what the TRAs are doing.

I guess I have a gender if gender is the way you present ( masculine/ feminine) because I look unmistakably feminine. But then, so I have been told, I don't have a very "feminine" personality ( which I take to mean placating, putting myself last and and tripping over myself to please..) I don't think feminine behaviour is innate in women it's just what we are supposed to be like.
I don't care if people declare their pronouns, that's up to them, but if anyone asks me to do that I will say "no".
It does bother me that at work we used to have a women's network, but now we have a gender equality network (open to all genders). They discuss things like the mental load and menopause, without ever making reference to which sex these things impact...they talk about the long term economic effect of covid on working parents, not mothers, and they hold meetings where everyone dances around the words " sex" and "woman" .
I find the denying of reality quite upsetting at times and there are several colleagues who have now marked my card as a mean lady who makes troublesome comments... Maybe it is time to identify as a Mr?

Fuck me.

Once again, gender is not a synonym for sex. So all the gender reveal parties/scans/fuckin piñatas are called that because people liked the sounds of it better than 'sex reveal'.

It has caused a lot of confusion, now that gender is being redefined wrt trans people to mean a feeling of identifying as male/female/neither.

@ArabellaScott

Prawn, sex is your biological sex, determined by chromosomes and your sexed body. Gender is a theoretical term used to mean stereotypes of behaviour associated with and applied to sexes. The two terms are commonly conflated and confused but they do have distinct meanings. In everyday usage it often doesn't matter but the new genderist ideology is adding to the confusion by claiming sex is also a construct and/or a spectrum. The words matter when drawing up laws and policy, which is why the debate on, for example, replacing the word 'sex', which is straightforward, with 'Gender', which some people use to claim sex is changeable and choosable. Hope that means sense?

Feminists are 'gender critical' because they question sexist stereotypes.

Gender is a theoretical term used to mean stereotypes of behaviour associated with and applied to sexes.

I think that's a TRA way if thinking. "Gender is used to mean stereotypes of behaviour". That allows someone to say "I'm a man but I paint my nails and wear makeup and skirts so I'm a woman."

No. If you're a female then you're either a girl or woman depending on age. Possibly a lady as young children are fond of saying. If you're male you're a boy or a man. Or if you're an old boy you might still like to be a "gent".

I'd rather reclaim gender as the words used to mean essentially the same thing as sex. I'm a woman whether I wear dresses and heels or jeans. Whether my hair is long or short. No matter what my interests are. To bite back at the TRAs and say I'll only go by "female" is stripping away some humanity for me.

I can understand and get on board with the PPs who say it's the term "gender identity" they hate. But I have no problem with the word "gender" although I do have a problem with how it's being mangled by the non-binary crowd.

@Galvantulang

Fuck me.

Once again, gender is not a synonym for sex. So all the gender reveal parties/scans/fuckin piñatas are called that because people liked the sounds of it better than 'sex reveal'.

It has caused a lot of confusion, now that gender is being redefined wrt trans people to mean a feeling of identifying as male/female/neither.

If gender isn't essentially synonymous with sex then what are the words man and woman, boy and girl? Are they just your sex? So my sex is female and woman. I don't mind that. But I also don't mind my sex being female and my gender being woman. It amounts to the same damn thing.

I just don't see the problem in having different types of words. But we're in agreement here, the problem is with those who try to distort reality and claim to be what they physically are not and cannot be.

@prawnpower Sorry for the crabbit post above.

But gender and sex did not used to mean the same thing. Someone more knowledgeable can maybe pinpoint when it was decided to use it in place of sex, thus contributing to this confusion.

Once again, gender is not a synonym for sex. So all the gender reveal parties/scans/fuckin piñatas are called that because people liked the sounds of it better than 'sex reveal'

And breathe!!!

Sorry

The piñata rant may have been excessive.

All seems like a big fuss over nothing to me. I am a biological woman - I'm not what would be considered feminine generally - I don't wear makeup or bother much with my appearance, I have lots of male friends, etc etc. I am bisexual I guess in that I have slept with men and women but I am married to a man. I also have many female friends and sometimes I get dressed up and wear makeup and do my nails. Do I feel the need to put a name to what I am? No and I'm not sure that it helps the people who do but if they feel better then good for them. Just all seems a bit pointless and weird!

If gender isn't essentially synonymous with sex then what are the words man and woman, boy and girl? Are they just your sex?

Yes

If I have a girl I'm not going to say to people I have a " little female"

No one would expect you to! Girl is just the word for a minor female human. Calling it a "gender" when we say gender is a social construct and it's more associated with "gender identity" is just muddying the water.

[quote Galvantulang]@prawnpower Sorry for the crabbit post above.

But gender and sex did not used to mean the same thing. Someone more knowledgeable can maybe pinpoint when it was decided to use it in place of sex, thus contributing to this confusion.[/quote]

Gender used to be a grammatical term. It was used when discussing linguistics. I just don't see the issue with it being used for years as defining boys, men, girls and women as opposed to the biological markers male and female.

I think the TRAs forcing their definitions on these words is the issue and they'd find a way to do that regardless of whether the English language had different ways of expressing "female person" or not. If English only had "female" and "male" they'd still find a way to mangle it.

Case in point. There are no pronouns in sign language. You point to the person you are talking about. when the person isn't there you set up who you are talking about in imaginary space in front of you and you refer back to them by pointing. There is no "he" or "she". Surprise surprise, gender theory and TRA nonsense is sweeping the Deaf community just as it is the hearing community.

They will continue to try and find a way and I just think quibbling over sex vs gender is pointless. Sex is male or female, gender is man or woman, and these are inexorably linked.

No, given that the issue has been explained eleventy billion times and it’s still not sinking in I actually thought you were eminently patient. I posted in sympathy.

My previous post was to the OP.

I think it’s been massively over thought! If you wanna be a man or a women and change gender go for it. But I was born a women and will always be one. I don’t need to be called “cis gender” or any of that snowflake bullshit.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If I have a girl I'm not going to say to people I have a " little female"

No one would expect you to! Girl is just the word for a minor female human. Calling it a "gender" when we say gender is a social construct and it's more associated with "gender identity" is just muddying the water.

I don't say gender is a social construct. I say gender is simply another linguistic marker.

I don't use the term "gender identity" because it's nonsense and insinuates that you can "feel" differently from the gender you actually are. Your gender isn't about stereotypes or how you feel. It's just a marker for whether you're a man or a woman.

But I also don't mind my sex being female and my gender being woman. It amounts to the same damn thing.

It does to you. But people will think you mean you are saying are a (apologies for the term) "cis woman" because you've not made a distinction between biological sex, and the social construct which is "gender".

@Galvantulang

If gender isn't essentially synonymous with sex then what are the words man and woman, boy and girl? Are they just your sex?

Yes

I can get on board with that. I suppose I'm just saying I don't have an issue with "gender" being a category. And I don't see why the fight is to abandon the word gender rather than to insist on it meaning nothing more than man or woman.

If I were to fill out a form that asked my gender I'd have no problem filling it out as long as the options were only man or woman or prefer not to disclose.