To think a sitting Labour MP should operate in line with their manifesto

[HermioneWeasley]

Leeds Labour MP has confirmed he doesn’t think women should have any sex segregated spaces (despite the commitment in the last manifesto), and that anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

If you vote for a party, shouldn’t you be able to rely on your MP abiding by manifesto commitments?

Also, what kind of woman hating psychopath thinks that refuges and prisons should be mixed sex?

My first priority is to see the back of this government and the misery it's caused. If you see that as being prepared to throw women under the bus that's your interpretation. I don't think Sobel should have said what he said and I am not in favour of mixed sex prisons etc. If such a thing becomes official Labour Party policy I'd think it would be a very misguided move, but so far as far as I know it isn't likely to appear in a manifesto.

And I don't believe the Tory party gives a stuff about the safety and well-being of women - or any other vulnerable section of society.

This is the problem

I would never vote Tory
I can't vote labour green or libdem

I mean it's shit. It's fucking shit.

To be in this position. They all hate women.

I don’t think the Tories care about women.

I think enough of them care enough about or hold a begrudging respect for ‘their women’ (as in their mps, the barroness and so on) that they will ‘allow’ the current discussions within their ranks about shutting down self id.

Now that’s a fucking useless amount of care when it comes to say how they see mums claiming benefits and so on. But, shutting down self id and protecting sex based legal rights protections does benefit all women, including the lot that the Tories wouldn’t gaf about normally.

Labour (ld, snp, greens also) being so pro self id wipes out all women’s rights in one go. It’s really not going to make any difference if they’d give your kids better school meals when they’ll make all sports, shelters, toilets, prisons and so on mixed sex and silence any women who discusses female biology. Being a bit less hungry r having a couple of extra pounds each week will matter not a fuck when you have to submit to a tw doing your rape kit or have to call your rapist she when he’s male or accessing a shelter where your abusive husband can follow you straight in by saying he’s a woman.

I’m not ok with Tories for so many reasons, I don’t feel they would protect or care about me as a woman in many respects, but I think so far they are the only party who has acknowledged that being a woman is based on sex and haven’t canceled the mps who are brave enough to discuss biological reality and the impact self id will have on women’s rights.

Tories may well see women as less than, but at least they see us. We don’t have to be grateful for that measly offering, but we can’t ever improve women’s rights ever if self id comes in and women now include men. Every women’s rights group would have to include men, every assessment of how women vote would include men’s voices, every assessment of how Parliament meet women’s needs wouldn’t ever cater to our reality because it would include men. We can’t ever fight our way back from that. We at least have a hope of doing so if government recognises that women =adult human female and isn’t scared of saying so.

@ilovesooty

Absolutely nothing would or could convince me to vote Tory. I couldn't countenance throwing all less privileged people under a bus.

Who do you think the "less privileged people" are in the U.K. today?

Women are statistically more likely to:

• earn less
• not to be employed in senior roles
• have a career in a less well remunerated "caring" profession with less status
• as a result of the above have lesser pensions and more likely to experience pension poverty
• be sexually assaulted
• be murdered by their partner
• be the victim of domestic violence
• turn have to prostitution/other sex to earn money

I challenge anyone to find any other cohort of the UK's population that has a higher probability of the all the points above and to the same degree.

NiceGerbil I know. I absolutely cannot vote Green or Lib-Dem.

My choice next election is going to be a practical keep-the-Tories-out Labour, spoiling or a principled SDP vote, assuming they stand locally.

sdp.org.uk/policies/transgender-and-biological-sex-based-rights/

With respect to those who disagree with me, I'm not going to change my standpoint on this any more than you are going to change yours, so I'm not going enter further into justifying it.

No ones asking you to change your mind or justify it.

Just pointing out the lack of logic in claiming you’d never vote Tory because you wouldn’t throw less vulnerable people under the bus.

I’ve never voted Tory ever, and I only would if my candidate, whose safe seat mp, would be openly gender critical and stand against self id. I’d vote any other candidate who was willing to do that too. I think anyone stuck with these voting conflicts should very seriously consider finding out which candidate is willing to be openly gc and consider doing everything possible to get them elected reguardless of which party they belong too. A few lousy gc mps from any party obviously getting seats on the back of their stance on women’s rights sends a very strong message, and is possibly the best chance we have of any party taking notice of women.

Loudly, I meant loudly. Although I guess mps normally equals lousy too!

I'm afraid I do see the party I vote for as important and don't want to see MPs elected purely on whether or not they are GC.

Regardless of current Labour policy, I am prepared to bet good money that bringing in self-id will be in their manifesto at the next election.

Sir Keith was the only one of the leadership/deputy leadership candidates who didn’t sign ‘that pledge’ during the leadership campaign. He was vague and evasive when questioned about it, but he’s been totally silent about the accusations levelled at Rosie Duffield.

The aggressive Twitter activist groups have far too much influence over party policy.

I would never vote Lib Dem, Green or Labour at the moment because of this issue. It’s a red line for me. I’m not going to brush it off as just a ‘minor policy point’ that I disagree with.

That's up to you sooty. There's no point in trying to change people's minds if they are firmly made up, even if I do disagree with them. Tbh I'm more interested in reaching out to the people who lurk but don't post. Those who are seeking more information to make a decision. The one thing I will take from this thread is to ask candidates in writing the Janice turner question before voting. And that is what is going to guide me in who I vote for on a local level.

Yep hettie me too.

I think candidates receiving that exactly worded question from all gc women and men might be forced to start thinking seriously.

Any party that fundamentally believes that the safety, privacy, dignity and equality of female humans - including their right to consent to who they undress in front of, not being locked up with convicted serious sex offenders - and that it is more important to exclude some vulnerable females from any facilities in order to value the better self realisation of male humans? This is the fundamental belief that females are born inferior to male humans, and should always be subordinate to, lesser than, given lesser consideration or value.

Yeah, as a female, any other policy they may have becomes irrelevant, because that's insane. They could be fabulous on every other policy and it wouldn't matter. What stake can any female take in politics on those terms? What the hell next steps would follow for females?

That takes the expectation of feminine socialised self sacrifice into very, very unhealthy territory. I would do anything to avoid a party with this intent from getting into power.

@ilovesooty

I'm afraid I do see the party I vote for as important and don't want to see MPs elected purely on whether or not they are GC.

And it's your right to make this choice.

However, I simply disagree with your logic.

I was a Labour voter because I used to feel as a party their policies benefited not just the majority of the people in the U.K. but importantly the most vulnerable.

When we look statically at who the most vulnerable are women as a corhort stand out not just because of the many things that make them vulnerable (see list below) but also because they are 51% of the population.

Ergo any party that undermines women's rights cannot possibly be said to be serious about making a positive socioeconomic contribution to overall equality in the U.K nor be protecting the less privileged.

The argument that this is just a rogue MP doesn't wash with me either.

Firstly there are too many MP's who (albeit less rudely) hold this position and secondly these types of verbal attacks (calling people bigots if they don't agree with his views) are never challenged by the leadership.

If his position is not policy then Starmer should have absolutely no problem publicly stating that and condemning these tweets.

But he never does. So policy or not it becomes a position that's culturally co-opted into the party and continues to thrive and voting for them encourages this.

If the LP is still in this shape over this issue and gets into power how long do you think it will take Sobel and his likeminded allies to press for EA and GRA reform?

So yes, you're entitled to think as you do and also not to justify it but by the same token I can state that as a choice imho it's making a conscious decision to throw women under the bus in favour of what you perceive to be more important issues ie which is protecting "under privileged" men (because thats whose left who would stand to benefit from a Labour govt).

Let's bear in mind that 'GC' in this sense means nothing more than a belief that female sex based rights should not be eliminated to benefit people of the male sex. It means that they do not believe that female feelings and rights should be disregarded to the benefit of people of the male sex. That's it. That's all. The equal regard for female people's feelings, voices, needs and choices to male people's in making policy and law.

Who really believes this is a novel, unnecessary thing in a politician?

Yeah, as a female, any other policy they may have becomes irrelevant, because that's insane. They could be fabulous on every other policy and it wouldn't matter.

For me, it’s a canary in the coal mine issue. If they’re cowardly enough to be unable to stand up to activists on an issue of this importance, what else will they bow to?

Even Blair (who I have no great love for ) accurately described the last Labour manifesto as a checklist of activists’ demands.

For me it's no longer just about whether a party is gender critical or supports self ID. It's also about whether those of us who are GC and who don't support self ID can talk about it without being accused of transphobia, bigotry or hate speech. No way am I voting for someone who wants me to shut up.

@NiceGerbil

This is the problem

I would never vote Tory
I can't vote labour green or libdem

I mean it's shit. It's fucking shit.

To be in this position. They all hate women.

Not as much as the SNP do! Head in hands.

My Tory MP wrote me a heartening response on the issue of toilets. No accusations of bigotry because I don’t want my young female child forced to share toilet and changing spaces with men who believe they are women.

Having voted Labour my entire adult life, I voted Labour again at the last election despite everything in my head screaming at me not to. I did because I fell for the line that we should think about the bigger picture as others have mentioned. I am furious at myself for lending them my vote, they hate me and they hate all women who speak up for themselves.

This push to rid women of their spaces, places and language will hurt the poorest and most vulnerable women the most. They are the most likely to end up in prisons for minor crimes and least likely to be able to fight to access their rights. My priority now is supporting women first and foremost, this disgusting misogyny from people who should be fighting to protect us needs to be stopped and called out for what it is. Labour will never get my vote again until this rot is gone.

This is my MP

The good thing about that Terrific is you can write and tell him you can't wait to kick his sorry arse come the next election.

My MP is a Tory who also did not dismiss my concerns over self id at the last election. He agreed. The Labour candidate argued with me that TWAW and that it would be cruel to make 'her' use the men's loos. Same old shit.

I spoiled my ballot. I will vote Tory next time as the LP are an utter disgrace. And I used to be a party member and remember the absolute joy and optimism of the Labour govt getting in in 1997. WTF happened?

The good thing about that Terrific is you can write and tell him you can't wait to kick his sorry arse come the next election.

I know! 😂 All this “I don’t need votes from bigots” is pretty big talk, isn’t it?