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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
MrsBrunch · 04/02/2021 18:12

It's incredible that Stonewall now deny same sex relationships. They have done a massive U turn and now don't even recognise sex all.

chestnutSquash · 04/02/2021 18:14

I grew up in the 70s and 80s. Men had long hair and wore make up. We marched for gay rights. We all knew who were men and who were women. Nobody insisted it was possible to change sex.There was a very small number of " transexuals" who had hormones and surgery. Generally we all sympathised with them and got on with our lives.
It is completely different now.

MrsWooster · 04/02/2021 18:18

They should be welcome in schools, if they were still teaching about accepting people. Sadly, since they now preach that children who don’t conform to 1950s sexist stereotypes should be medicated and told that they are ‘wrong’, they can fuck right off.

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 18:21

@Ijustreallywantacat

Just curious. Let's say your dreams come true and stonewall doesn't exist. There is s totally blank slate for teaching the kids about trans people and gender/sex.

Let's say you're the head of a secondary school.
A) What would you teach the children about trans people?
B) What about gender and sex?
C) How would you handle teens who want to change pronouns and dress differently?

This is going way off track to the OP, which is about safeguarding in schools and keeping lobby groups out, but my personal thoughts on your questions:

A) Some people have dysphoria which makes them feel a disconnect with their sex. There are various reasons which cause this and for a minority of people who suffer with dysphoria, medically transitioning to live as the opposite sex may be the best option for them. Some men who do not have dysphoria also enjoy dressing as their perception of femininity, for example wearing dresses and make up. This is fine and they should not face discrimination for this, however nor does it mean they should be treated as females in every aspect of life.

B) Sex is binary and immutable. There are two gametes and therefore two sexes: male and female. Males have a body designed to support the production of small gametes (sperm) and females have a body designed to support the production of large gametes (eggs).

Some people believe in something called gender and some do not. Although it's unclear what this is, it is linked to things stereotypically associated with the two sexes, or masculinity or femininity. In an ideal world, there would be no gender or gender stereotypes and the two sexes would be free to wear, like and love who they like, etc.

C) Why would teens ever feel the need to change their pronouns if they 1. did not have gender stereotypes imposed on them, 2. Any dysphoria was properly assessed so the root cause was found, e.g. childhood sexual abuse, social contagion, internalised homophobia etc.

Teens should be allowed to dress however they like (obviously within reason in a formal school environment. I don't believe their sex should impact this. If a boy wants to wear a dress, he should be free to do so and this does not make him a girl. Similarly if a boy falls in love with a boy that's fine and it doesn't make him a girl.

Obviously that was a very quick summary but hopefully you get the idea. Basically, avoid regressive stereotypes and stick to facts and proper, evidence based treatments.

OP posts:
rogdmum · 04/02/2021 18:23

@Ijustreallywantacat

Just curious. Let's say your dreams come true and stonewall doesn't exist. There is s totally blank slate for teaching the kids about trans people and gender/sex.

Let's say you're the head of a secondary school.
A) What would you teach the children about trans people?
B) What about gender and sex?
C) How would you handle teens who want to change pronouns and dress differently?

Specific to your third point, I want schools to look at pupils on a case by case basis. I find it abhorrent that my daughter’s school pushes affirmation based on “guidance” by LGBT Youth Scotland when over the past 2+ years a (private) child psychologist, (private) therapist who specialised in gender identity issues and a (NHS) psychiatrist have all said affirmation is not appropriate for her, and our experience is that when she is affirmed by adults around her, her mental health goes into a downward spiral.

That is a complete lack of safeguarding in favour of an ideology for God knows what sort of reasoning. There are many many reasons for adolescent girls to be suffering from gender confusion these days and blindly affirming without expert mental health input is a recipe for disaster.

Impatiens · 04/02/2021 18:25

@Ijustreallywantacat

Just curious. Let's say your dreams come true and stonewall doesn't exist. There is s totally blank slate for teaching the kids about trans people and gender/sex.

Let's say you're the head of a secondary school.
A) What would you teach the children about trans people?
B) What about gender and sex?
C) How would you handle teens who want to change pronouns and dress differently?

A) I would briefly cover Gender Dysphoria and leave it at that

B) I would ensure that children understood the crucial difference between the two.

C) I would hope that any school these days had a 'unisex' uniform anyway. I would make it clear to the child and their parents that I would not be making any announcements or giving instructions about their pronouns to the school.

BrumBoo · 04/02/2021 18:29

Let's say you're the head of a secondary school.
A) What would you teach the children about trans people?

@Ijustreallywantacat

That gender dysphoria is a rare condition, and those who suffer with it should be treated with respect and care just as any other human being.

B) What about gender and sex?

The same as religion and science. Gender is a belief borne out of sociological ideology, with deep bases in sexism seen in conservative or fundamental cultures. It defines female and male through personality, likes and dislikes and the idea that these aspects are inherently 'gendered'.

Sex is the scientific fact of a human biology. It has no reflection on how your brain 'works' and doesn't determine you as a person beyond functions of your physiology.

C) How would you handle teens who want to change pronouns and dress differently?

Same way we've always dealt with teens that want to be 'different'. Keep an eye on them for safeguarding issues, respect their choices to a reasonable degree - that degree not imposing on anyone else right to a safe and fair environment.

chestnutSquash · 04/02/2021 18:35

It is the pushing of dangerous drugs and mutilating surgery I object to.
Otherwise dress how you like.
In my day it was goths and genderbenders. All good.
Actually I go back further than that, but we don't need to go as far as the 60s.

Snorkers · 04/02/2021 18:37

Yanbu. Stonewall are a homophobic hate group who should have charitable status removed immediately.

ChloeCrocodile · 04/02/2021 18:43

Yes, reminding them that sex=/=gender and that a dress does not a woman make- but that really is the message they're getting too.

If that was the message they were getting I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, I tried for years to find a reputable organisation for teaching resources on this topic and they all linked "woman gender identity" with stereotypical female things (dresses, make up, long hair). Most also used the horribly circular "a woman is someone who feels like a woman" which is a completely ridiculous way to try to explain something to children.

Wotapolava · 04/02/2021 18:48

Stonewall said Women and girls don't have rights to safe spaces?

Shocking!

JoodyBlue · 04/02/2021 18:50

Section 28 aimed to deny gay people their right to be who are they, it was terrible and rightly fought against. There is no such legislation in place currently denying trans people rights. In fact society is embracing trans people more than at any other time and rightly so. Yet there is a concerted effort from Stonewall and organisations like it to change the way that young people understand their sex and sexuality and impose a rigid stereotypical idea of gender upon them. There is further an ideological push into language change. Change in language changes people's ideas. People are allowed to push back. We have to live together we don't do it by imposing ideas and then claiming this is the way things have always been and it is now the law. Attitudes change through persuasion of good ideas. If they are good for a society as a whole, attitudes usually do change.

chestnutSquash · 04/02/2021 18:51

Stonewall hate women. Especially lesbians. ( the ones with xx chromosomes).

purpleboy · 04/02/2021 18:55

Agree completely, the problem is on the surface they look ok, to anyone not informed in this issue, they possibly wouldn't connect the dots and see the red flags, this has been my experience when asking opinions about stonewall from friends, it's only when I've explained the issues in detail they then realise how incredibly wrong the organisation is.

pumpkinbump · 04/02/2021 19:04

@Ijustreallywantacat

Why is there suddenly tonnes of these these threads on AIBU? Do I have to block AIBU too? Sad

YABVVVU.

Why do you see it as problematic to discuss these issues on a board where more people are likely to see them?
Girlyracer · 04/02/2021 19:09

Completely agree with you OP. They can keep well away from my children!

Rubble1329 · 04/02/2021 19:12

Schools should not be indoctrinating children. Stonewall is a political lobby group and an extreme one at that. Its stance on women's rights and safeguarding are completely inappropriate and I have a big issue with their judgement. Stonewall, leave those kids alone.

persistentwoman · 04/02/2021 19:17

Very pleased to see this thread and so many thoughtful posts. Part of the problem in schools is that because of #nodebate along with labelling anyone raising even safeguarding concerns as bigots, many teachers have no idea of the changes in Stonewall and their current regressive approach to women and child safeguarding.
We need to talk about this and feel free to ask why Stonewall are determined that born males must be allowed to play in women's rugby and other sports or that girls must share changing rooms and showers with boys if they say they are girls.
It's worth noting that Stonewall are currently targeting primary schools to get schools to purchase their materials and training. One easy thing parents can do when confronted with Stonewall in their school is to ask the school whether they are spending the same amount of time and ££ on all the other protected characteristics / vulnerable children (race, disability, sex etc) ? I bet they're not.

Wearywithteens · 04/02/2021 19:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

AStudyinPink · 04/02/2021 19:23
  • Let's say you're the head of a secondary school. A) What would you teach the children about trans people? B) What about gender and sex? C) How would you handle teens who want to change pronouns and dress differently?*

A. Some people experience a sense of discomfort with their sex. This can be very strong, and can cause some people to wish to live ‘as’ the other sex. They call this being trans.
B. Some people believe they have something called a ‘gender’, which is a sense of being male or female in their minds.
C. Dressing differently is fine. Requesting others use different pronouns to address you is fine. Using a person’s requested pronouns is fine. Nobody will be forced to say “he” when they perceive “she”, or the other way round.

MintyMabel · 04/02/2021 19:33

Meh. The Church of Scotland also have unfettered access to our kids here in Scotland. We understand if we need to provide balance to what is taught at school, we will do so.

MintyMabel · 04/02/2021 19:36

Why do you see it as problematic to discuss these issues on a board where more people are likely to see them?

Same reason as we have boards where Coronavirus or Meghan threads are moved to. Because otherwise this stuff overwhelms AIBU and not everyone wants to turn this site into a single topic place.

Plus, this belongs in the echo chamber, where dissenting views are very much unwelcome - as much as people will whine and moan that they are open for debate.

IWillSqueakAgain · 04/02/2021 19:41

D of E most recent update makes it clear they shouldn’t.

BrumBoo · 04/02/2021 19:42

Meh. The Church of Scotland also have unfettered access to our kids here in Scotland

Churches/religion having a firm grasp on schools (and its not just in Scotland) is not 'meh'. Belief systems do not belong in schools. Gender is just a new-age religion, it follows the exact same principles.

One of the reasons I'm having such difficulty following Humanist UK at the moment. They have shown themselves to be rather hypocritical over religious views vs other sociological beliefs.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 04/02/2021 19:42

Seems ok until you realise they include adult males as women. They flat out refuse to say same sex attracted and apparently gay is more if a medical term.
They think homosexual is same 'gender attracted'

YANBU. They’ve become a misogynistic, homophobic, intolerant, science-denying bunch of zealots and should have absolutely no place in our education system

This.
Stonewall are a political lobby group.

Schools (and the policeHmm) are meant to be politically neutral so why are they pushing this on children?

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?
..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?