Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 17:15

@Ijustreallywantacat

Why is there suddenly tonnes of these these threads on AIBU? Do I have to block AIBU too? Sad

YABVVVU.

Are you able to expand on why you feel it's unreasonable? What are the positives of a) Stonewall's school resources breaching DofE guidance on gender identity and b) Stonewall's stances on child safeguarding, women's single sex spaces and sports?
OP posts:
Quaagars · 04/02/2021 17:17

It's about Schools and School policies?

Very innocently done with a little question mark there.
Aye, course it is.
Yet another trans thread, seeing as it's to do with Stonewall.
Also to the poster who's asking why there's suddenly so many in AIBU, seems to be a concerted effort going on to spam the boards with them for "sunlight."
Hmm

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 17:18

@BlueCatRedCat

YANBU, OP.

My child's school has a Stonewall club, and unfortunately, DC's head of year is very involved in this, in a way which makes me not trust her judgment or feel that DC would get a fair hearing if DC were to object to the breaching of their boundaries, and indeed the Equalities legislation, in the name of inclusion.

This week, all the children have been given an " IDENTITY SYM-BULB", an A4 drawing of a lightbulb with the rainbow flag on the screw part of the bulb. They are supposed to fill it in with their "identity". This is off the back of an LGBTQ+ assembly the head of year ran. Unfortunately - or maybe fortunately - DC missed this. But the queer theory alarm bells have gone off in my head . I wonder if this has come from Stonewall? They have already tried getting Girl Guide leaders to teach queer theory in one of the guide badge activities.

I would write to the school and request they let you know who has provided the resources / trained the staff on RSE related content. Definitely share your concerns about Stonewall and other organisations which have similar political ideologies.
OP posts:
Whatisthisfuckery · 04/02/2021 17:19

I am a lesbian and up until 6 or so years ago I would have supported Stonewall wholeheartedly. Nowadays they do not stand for the best interests of same sex attracted people, especially lesbians.

As far as I’m concerned primary schools should teach that families come in all different types, and that sometimes there are two mums or two dads etc. No school child of any age needs to know more than that same sex relationships between consenting adults are fine, normal and healthy. A well taught SRE curriculum should cover all the aspects of safe sex and consent that they need to know.

When it comes to trans kids should be taught that some people identify as the opposite sex, and that they should be treated with the same level of respect as anyone else in society.

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 17:20

@Quaagars

It's about Schools and School policies?

Very innocently done with a little question mark there.
Aye, course it is.
Yet another trans thread, seeing as it's to do with Stonewall.
Also to the poster who's asking why there's suddenly so many in AIBU, seems to be a concerted effort going on to spam the boards with them for "sunlight."
Hmm

It is about child safeguarding and school resources. I don't understand why there would be an issue with it being in here. This affects all parents of school-aged children.
OP posts:
Ijustreallywantacat · 04/02/2021 17:26

Theyre very good at the faux innocence aren't they Quaagers! Be trotting out some links to some henious crime a trans person has done soon, as if that will convince me that all trans people are dangerous.

I'm not going to get involved with the back and forth because there is no point, we disagree and you've heard it many times before. Tweens and teens are experimenting with their appearance and calling themselves different things, twas ever thus. The best thing a parent can do is support them and go with the flow IMHO. Yes, reminding them that sex=/=gender and that a dress does not a woman make- but that really is the message they're getting too.

It just saddens me that mumsnet is becoming a hideous echo chamber. Dont worry though. I'm obviously in a minority, so you can continue to pat each other on the back.

BrumBoo · 04/02/2021 17:26

@ConcernedMum100, no point trying to engage with Quaggars on these subjects. They seem to think that any discussion about sex-based rights or children safeguarding is unnecessary at best, transphobic at worst (usually closer to the latter). They never engage with the actual discussion though, or explain why they disagree with the point at hand with evidence as to why we're wrong/misinformed/bigoted.

BrumBoo · 04/02/2021 17:29

as if that will convince me that all trans people are dangerous.

@Ijustreallywantacat, this discussion is about safeguarding issues that comes with gender ideology that's pushed in schools. There are plenty about safe spaces based on sex based rights if you want to engage with those discussions.

Sheleg · 04/02/2021 17:29

Stonewall should be shut down.

chestnutSquash · 04/02/2021 17:31

Personally, I see no reason why these concerns should not be discussed. Anyone who is annoyed or worried about this topic being debated can easily just not read the thread.
I think it is a good thing that parents are being made aware of this ideology being taught in schools, as it has been largely introduced by stealth and completely ignores all safeguarding principles that parents could reasonably expect.
I am glad that my DC are grown up now, but they will still have to deal with this in their work places and sports.

Hannah1329 · 04/02/2021 17:36

@Ijustreallywantacat

Theyre very good at the faux innocence aren't they Quaagers! Be trotting out some links to some henious crime a trans person has done soon, as if that will convince me that all trans people are dangerous.

I'm not going to get involved with the back and forth because there is no point, we disagree and you've heard it many times before. Tweens and teens are experimenting with their appearance and calling themselves different things, twas ever thus. The best thing a parent can do is support them and go with the flow IMHO. Yes, reminding them that sex=/=gender and that a dress does not a woman make- but that really is the message they're getting too.

It just saddens me that mumsnet is becoming a hideous echo chamber. Dont worry though. I'm obviously in a minority, so you can continue to pat each other on the back.

A couple of points:

IMO, this post is not about trans people, it is about safeguarding in schools and children being taught evidenced based facts rather than political ideology. However, to address your point, nobody I know thinks transgender people are more or less of a risk than anybody else. We recognise that males and females are different and that this matters in certain situations, including in places where females may be vulnerable. If you believe that male / female segregation is needed at times, I don't understand why anyone would think TW are excepted from that rule.

It would not be a problem if tweens and teens were simply "experimenting with their appearance and calling themselves different things," but this is not only what is happening and it is disingenuous for you to suggest that is all this is. Strict gender stereotypes lead to children believing they should be the opposite sex. Affirming this leads them to believe they're right and that they need to change their bodies, which leads to puberty blockers, which lead to cross sex hormones, which lead to a loos of sexual function and infertility. It is not innocent and every parent should be aware of what is going on so they can have a say. Why wouldn't you want this to be discussed? Seems suspicious to me.

Blakes77 · 04/02/2021 17:37

It is about safeguarding, absolutely. I want girls to be able to wear what they want and express themselves how they want without Stonewall telling them they are really boys!
I also feel very strongly that children of 12/13/14 should not be encouraged BY ADULTS to declare their sexuality at school. School is not the place to be "proud to be bisexual" (or straight, or gay). It's irrelevant to learning and nobody's business. Sure, learn about different kinds of families, but so many early teens seem to be encouraged to pick a side, sexually, at a very young age.

Quaagars · 04/02/2021 17:37

They seem to think that any discussion about sex-based rights or children safeguarding is unnecessary at best, transphobic at worst (usually closer to the latter)*

Not true at all, I have consistently and always said that I can see problems with this, it's just as another poster upthread said that there is a transphobic element to some of the discussion

They never engage with the actual discussion though, or explain why they disagree with the point at hand with evidence as to why we're wrong/misinformed/bigoted
Absolutely not true, I have repeatedly said exactly why on threads what bits are but people either don't or won't see it.

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 17:38

@chestnutSquash

Personally, I see no reason why these concerns should not be discussed. Anyone who is annoyed or worried about this topic being debated can easily just not read the thread. I think it is a good thing that parents are being made aware of this ideology being taught in schools, as it has been largely introduced by stealth and completely ignores all safeguarding principles that parents could reasonably expect. I am glad that my DC are grown up now, but they will still have to deal with this in their work places and sports.
Thanks for saying this and I completely agree. I find it really concerning that people try to shut down conversations about this, which impact on child safeguarding. The "no debate" stance is really worrying.
OP posts:
NoIDontWatchLoveIsland · 04/02/2021 17:40

My children will be removed from any such lessons involving training etc from stonewall/mermaids and what have you.

PatsArrow · 04/02/2021 17:45

So some people on MN are now complaining that parents want to discuss safeguarding and lobby groups within schools (that the Dept of Ed said last year they definitely didn't want within schools).

Ok then.

Hannah1329 · 04/02/2021 17:52

@PatsArrow

So some people on MN are now complaining that parents want to discuss safeguarding and lobby groups within schools (that the Dept of Ed said last year they definitely didn't want within schools).

Ok then.

Of course some people don't want others to discuss it. The more people become aware of what's happening, the less support there is for it.
gardenbird48 · 04/02/2021 17:55

I totally agree - Stonewall is currently launching a new campaign to target schools again and it is still full of issues that breach the government guidelines on these topics.

They deliberately encourage schools to make changes like mixed sex toilets or allowing a student to use the toilets of the opposite sex. Approximately 200 rapes take place in schools every year. Allowing female pupils to use the male toilets or vice versa is a massive safeguarding red flag that somehow schools have been convinced by Stonewall to ignore.

They have encouraged schools to allow pupils to socially transition without the knowledge or permission from their parents. This facilitates parental alienation and can set a child down a route that often seems to end with life changing hormone treatment and surgery.

One Stonewall Schools Ambassador is a rather high profile male-bodied 'lesbian' with a beard called Alex Drummond. Alex visits schools to talk to young female lesbians about being a lesbian. It is extremely concerning that schools have been persuaded that that is a good thing for our girls and haven't spotted the extremely large red flag that should be raising.

We, the taxpayers are financing Stonewall to campaign to remove single sex exemptions in the Equality Act 2010 and also to allow transgender people to participate in the opposite sex category in sports - particularly women's rugby.

We are also going to have to pay to get the influence and false information out of our schools before it is too late.

strawberriesontheNeva · 04/02/2021 17:58

I don't want them near my dc. Brainwashing is what it is.

JaimeLeeCurtains · 04/02/2021 17:59

I think it's perfectly appropriate for a parenting website to host discussions of children in schools and safeguarding regs. Why wouldn't it be?

Impatiens · 04/02/2021 17:59

@PatsArrow

So some people on MN are now complaining that parents want to discuss safeguarding and lobby groups within schools (that the Dept of Ed said last year they definitely didn't want within schools).

Ok then.

The usual suspects busting a gut trying to shut down any discussion - this is how we've got into the situation in the first place: a political lobbying group (Stonewall), promoting a faith-based ideology, has been allowed to spread their message in schools under the guise of 'diversity training and education'.
BlueCatRedCat · 04/02/2021 18:00

@PatsArrow

So some people on MN are now complaining that parents want to discuss safeguarding and lobby groups within schools (that the Dept of Ed said last year they definitely didn't want within schools).

Ok then.

ConcernedMum100 thank you. Yes, I need to approach the school. I have the Transgender Trend pack and will look at Safe Schools Alliance too. Your OP is excellent guidance.

PatsArrow do you have a link about lobby groups in schools? Thank you.

I had a look at Stonewall's teaching pack for LGBTQ+ history month. Interesting that the secondary pack is all about courageous lesbian in history. The irony - or shear audacity, after everything they have done over the last 10 years to vilify women - is breathtaking.

Ijustreallywantacat · 04/02/2021 18:02

Just curious. Let's say your dreams come true and stonewall doesn't exist. There is s totally blank slate for teaching the kids about trans people and gender/sex.

Let's say you're the head of a secondary school.
A) What would you teach the children about trans people?
B) What about gender and sex?
C) How would you handle teens who want to change pronouns and dress differently?

Ijustreallywantacat · 04/02/2021 18:05

Sorry for biting. I said u wouldn't. Sigh.

BlueCatRedCat · 04/02/2021 18:09

@Ijustreallywantacat

Just curious. Let's say your dreams come true and stonewall doesn't exist. There is s totally blank slate for teaching the kids about trans people and gender/sex.

Let's say you're the head of a secondary school.
A) What would you teach the children about trans people?
B) What about gender and sex?
C) How would you handle teens who want to change pronouns and dress differently?

Try looking at Transgender Trend UK. Their guidance for schools is excellent and puts the needs and safety of children first, over the ideology of lobby groups seeking reasons to exist, like Stonewall.