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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
MrsBrunch · 07/02/2021 18:25

@Wotapolava

Mrs Brunch,

Only money?

Or something other than?

And power.

Money, power and patriarchy, the holy trinity .

R0wantrees · 07/02/2021 18:55

The 'legal fiction' - I still haven't recovered from the shock of finding out that people were being allowed to falsify their birth certificates, it's so incredible. I'm sure the wider public would be equally shocked if they knew.

They would be more shocked to know how many adult human males have female passports and DBS certificates which state female despite having no intention of ever applying for a GRC.

Wotapolava · 07/02/2021 18:57

You say they are jawdropping.
Others point out the risk in communal rooms is low as most trans are not a cause for concern.

I agree that if that is the case then...

  1. Can we just get something done?
  2. Looking out for women and kids doesn't warrant going to extreme on the facts.

3)I dont agree with ridding of Stonewall because it doesn't do things to others taste.

Or maybe they feel deep down the change of stance was their fault?

Going round in circles for years on communal rooms too.

To say women should use them and trans shouldn't is just leaving all at an impasse.

I believe children should have been stopped from going in Communal areas a long time ago.

Getting trouble loading pages so I posted two points here.
Notifications have stopped and ads are coming through blank.

A site like this would do well out of full subscription me thinks.
Really well.

Certainly a site that benefits millions.

Impatiens · 07/02/2021 19:11

I dont agree with ridding of Stonewall because it doesn't do things to others taste.is

It's not a question of 'taste'. By law, organisations going into schools should be free of political bias, and any other ideology. For the sake of our children - and by 'our' children I mean the children in our society, so this is an issue that is relevant to everyone in that society.

BrumBoo · 07/02/2021 19:14

I dont agree with ridding of Stonewall because it doesn't do things to others taste.

So you're happy for any extreme-viewed organisation to come into schools and talk to children about their beliefs then? BNP type political party? Eco terrorists? Pro-Life organisations?

MaudTheInvincible · 07/02/2021 19:14

Have you posted here before under a different user name @Wotapolava? I ask because your writing style strongly reminds me of someone.

JoodyBlue · 07/02/2021 19:28

@Impatiens

I hope people will continue this thread - the more light shone on Stonewall the better. Perhaps there'll be some hope of beginning to root them out of schools and all other organisations they've inserted their sinister way into.
Anyone with a school age child can email their school to ask about Stonewall Championship and to express concerns. A really good consequence of this discussion would be for parents to do that.
R0wantrees · 07/02/2021 19:42

Anyone with a school age child can email their school to ask about Stonewall Championship and to express concerns. A really good consequence of this discussion would be for parents to do that.

Its also worth checking your child/ren's school Equality & Diversity policy (should be readily available). This should refer to the Equality Act 2010 which has nine protected characteristics including sex and gender reassignment. If these have been replaced with gender and/or gender identity this is incorrect and misrepresenting the law.

Many schools have been misadvised by lobbyists such as Stonewall or have copied inacurate policies in good faith and will correct when this is pointed out.

Safe Schools Alliance have further information and template letters
safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 07/02/2021 19:50

Many schools have been misadvised by lobbyists such as Stonewall or have copied inacurate policies in good faith and will correct when this is pointed out.

Isn't that rather an indicator that Stonewall ought not to be in a position to cause schools to promulgate "legal" advice which does not in fact follow the actual law?

Wotapolava · 07/02/2021 20:04

@Impatiens

I dont agree with ridding of Stonewall because it doesn't do things to others taste.is

It's not a question of 'taste'. By law, organisations going into schools should be free of political bias, and any other ideology. For the sake of our children - and by 'our' children I mean the children in our society, so this is an issue that is relevant to everyone in that society.

Imposing in people's life in general should apply the same? Works for some and not others?
R0wantrees · 07/02/2021 20:15

July 2019 Transgender Trend's description of how Stonewall has reacted to those who understand Safeguarding and are percieved as a challenge is telling:

(extract)
"Stonewall has chosen to base the withdrawal of our place at this conference on some defamatory, false and unsubstantiated accusations against us: we are ‘anti trans,’ we believe that trans people don’t exist and we are against ‘LGBT inclusive education.’ Stonewall has either not read any of our material, in which case they would be aware that these allegations are false, or they have read our material and simply seek to defame us.

Stonewall is the most powerful and influential LGBT organisation in the UK with an income of £8.7 million in 2018 including a £233,673 grant from the Department for Education. Stonewall has an Education Champions programme, a Children and Young People’s Services Champions programme and Stonewall School Champions award scheme. They have produced schools guidance for both primary and secondary schools. We have great concerns about the transgender content of Stonewall’s schools guidance, our analysis can be viewed here.

We have also produced schools guidance, for which our founder was shortlisted for the John Maddox Prize in 2018 and which was recently voted most compliant with EHRC Technical Guidance for Schools in a TES review. We have had an overwhelmingly positive response from teachers to our pack and a second print run is underway. Despite no government funding, corporate sponsorship or endorsement from government departments or teaching unions, we have become a competitor to Stonewall in the field of Education.

Unfortunately this is not the first time Stonewall has tried to silence our voice through the use of defamatory unsubstantiated allegations. This began as soon as we published our schools pack in February 2018" (continues)

www.transgendertrend.com/our-statement-stonewall/

Transgender Trend have a range of resources for schools and relevant articles: www.transgendertrend.com/articles-relating-to-school-policies/

www.transgendertrend.com/schools-resources/

Impatiens · 07/02/2021 20:47

Imposing in people's life in general should apply the same? Works for some and not others?

@Wotapolava this isn't how our society is supposed to work - someone else posted would you agree with other political organisations going into schools to spread their message? The Tories/Labour etc? BNP? Or religious organisations? Or do you just support Stonewall.

Their message isn't about tolerance and freedom of expression and openess - that's all fake. They are dishonest in their views and their methods and shouldn't be anywhere near children.

gardenbird48 · 07/02/2021 21:10

@R0wantrees

The 'legal fiction' - I still haven't recovered from the shock of finding out that people were being allowed to falsify their birth certificates, it's so incredible. I'm sure the wider public would be equally shocked if they knew.

They would be more shocked to know how many adult human males have female passports and DBS certificates which state female despite having no intention of ever applying for a GRC.

there was a certain transgender judge recently featured in the Sunday Times Women of the Year (or something like that) who has been working on a project to make it easier for people to change their name/official documents/erase any previous history. This judge was lauded as the youngest 'woman' to take such a senior position, despite having at least 25 years male socialisation and career advantage of being male.

This would undermine the DBS system (initially CRB), ironically put in place as a safeguarding after the terrible murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman by Ian Huntley.

R0wantrees · 07/02/2021 21:22

This would undermine the DBS system (initially CRB), ironically put in place as a safeguarding after the terrible murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman by Ian Huntley.

The DBS system is already undermined as potential employees can hide/deny being male using the special 'trans' stream. This will impact the effeciveness of any sex based Safeguarding policies within the workplace be they schools, nurseries, social care, health etc.

A significant loophole exists with regards disclosure of previous names.

relevant 2019 thread from pg 18:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3653715-Challenor-showing-off-their-new-birth-certificate?pg=18

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3690840-Reply-from-Home-Office-re-DBS-and-GRC

Wotapolava · 07/02/2021 21:23

@Impatiens

Imposing in people's life in general should apply the same? Works for some and not others?

@Wotapolava this isn't how our society is supposed to work - someone else posted would you agree with other political organisations going into schools to spread their message? The Tories/Labour etc? BNP? Or religious organisations? Or do you just support Stonewall.

Their message isn't about tolerance and freedom of expression and openess - that's all fake. They are dishonest in their views and their methods and shouldn't be anywhere near children.

Somebody has to ask why they managed to get that far. Surely government or local gov would have been involved in authorising it in first place? Or can charities or any other organisation literally approach schools?
Wotapolava · 07/02/2021 21:28

@MaudTheInvincible

Have you posted here before under a different user name *@Wotapolava*? I ask because your writing style strongly reminds me of someone.
Not another like me? Grin
Wotapolava · 07/02/2021 21:34

@BrumBoo

I dont agree with ridding of Stonewall because it doesn't do things to others taste.

So you're happy for any extreme-viewed organisation to come into schools and talk to children about their beliefs then? BNP type political party? Eco terrorists? Pro-Life organisations?

No. That isn't what I said. I'm all for teaching awareness if that is part of what they do. From reading the posts on here it appears Stonewall may have changed their position at some time which offended others. I'm assuming there wasn't a problem before? How long have they been involved in education?
OldCrone · 07/02/2021 21:35

Somebody has to ask why they managed to get that far.
Surely government or local gov would have been involved in authorising it in first place?
Or can charities or any other organisation literally approach schools?

Stonewall is seen as a 'trusted' organisation by many. It's been around for a long time and it's done a lot of good in the past in terms of campaigning for LGB rights.

Most people are unaware of the change in direction of Stonewall since they added the T to LGB.

Wotapolava · 07/02/2021 21:46

@R0wantrees

The 'legal fiction' - I still haven't recovered from the shock of finding out that people were being allowed to falsify their birth certificates, it's so incredible. I'm sure the wider public would be equally shocked if they knew.

They would be more shocked to know how many adult human males have female passports and DBS certificates which state female despite having no intention of ever applying for a GRC.

Not strictly true they changed birth certificates. Personally, I'm not happy that serious criminals and gangsters are free to roam.

Oh wait, they have to be caught, charged and convicted first...

R0wantrees · 07/02/2021 21:53

Most people are unaware of the change in direction of Stonewall since they added the T to LGB.

See Allison Bailey's website for details about why she is taking legal action against Stonewall.

(extract)
I am suing Stonewall Diversity Limited to stop them policing free speech.

I am a barrister and I helped to set up a new organisation for lesbian, gay and bisexual people, the LGB Alliance, to provide an alternative to Stonewall. In retaliation, Stonewall had me investigated by my chambers, in an attempt to cost me my livelihood." (continues)
allisonbailey.co.uk/

Allison Bailey is "a criminal defence barrister, a feminist, a lesbian, a lifelong campaigner for racial equality, lesbian, gay, and bisexual rights, and a survivor of child sexual abuse."

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 07/02/2021 21:55

Wotapolava
How long have they been involved in education?

All century, but a change of direction happened when they had succeeded in getting their main objectives passed. They stopped being an organisation working for homosexual equality and became a trans-oriented group at that point.

Following the passage of equal marriage laws, Stonewall sought a new focus. On 16 February 2015 Stonewall announced their plan to campaign for trans equality in a report generated from consultation with over 700 trans people, despite previously maintaining "a strict distinction between sexual orientation and gender identity" says Wikipedia.

R0wantrees · 07/02/2021 21:59

Not strictly true they changed birth certificates.

It is not neccessary to obtain a GRC/ change birth certificate to obtain a passport and DBS stating that you are the opposite sex.

Many men who have stated they have no intention of applying for a GRC/change of birth certificate have passports which state they are female and if wished could obtain DBS certificates which also stated incorrectly that they were female.

The passport and DBS service does not require a change of birth certificate to modify the sex marker. This will have Safeguarding implications.

ShotgunShack · 07/02/2021 22:12

Stonewall seem to have made an awful lot of money doing so called ‘training’ regarding gender diversity.

Yet although they have many millions of pounds in reserves they have spent very little on furthering provision for trans people. No funding on increasing facilities (they could easily afford to fund third spaces for example) and no support to research and find working solutions for gender diverse people. Instead they have lobbied to take away women’s existing rights in law. Not increase the choices for all, that they could easily afford to subsidise.

Seems to me they have become completely self serving. I wonder if they realise they appear to be exploiting LGBT people and gender identity as a just another source of income. It’s very poor behavior for a civil rights charity.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 07/02/2021 22:17

What has happened to Stonewall is what always happens to organisations which achieve their original stated aims: they look for something else to keep them going on.

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