..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

[ConcernedMum100]

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

@Ijustreallywantacat I am concerned if you're really an "educator" who can't read the words on the screenshot you've included and don't know how classrooms go when a child announces they're different.
Okay, child A says "I'm trans" you say "great," and move on with lesson. Then child B says "Miss! A is trans now! Does he have [insert intrusive question here]?"
The shutting down is in relation to child B. Would you really let your lesson get derailed by this? How have you ever passed an OfSTED inspection if so?
And no, you're not there to "fix" your students emotions. That smacks of not having healthy teacher/pupil boundaries and actually worries me from a safeguarding point of view.
Just the opinion of another educator.

That an effeminate boy*

I pressed the wrong button when voting, what an idiot. YANBU at all.

YANBU OP. Haha exactly @Whatsnewpussyhat. I was on MN for ages before venturing over to FWR but I'm glad I did. As has been mentioned upthread, they're an organisation, they go into schools, lots of people here are mums, why the hell shouldn't it be discussed?

If MN users don't like the message that Stonewall are taking into schools, that's not our problem is it. Why can't we say when we're unhappy, or uncomfortable? Oh yes I remember! Cause we're women. And women aren't supposed to voice our displeasure, or our being uncomfortable. We're supposed to shut up and smile, and be kind while safeguarding flies out of the window, and our children get told what hateful bigots we are while they're being set up to go on medical pathways right under our noses.

And any of us who can't toe the line should just bugger off back to FWR aka nasty witches, away from the traffic - so people can't see that the organisation they just equate with teaching kids about sexual orientations has turned into a different kettle of fish altogether?!

No. Shan't. Get used to hearing that word, by the way.

No.

Plus, this belongs in the echo chamber, where dissenting views are very much unwelcome - as much as people will whine and moan that they are open for debate.

Hahaha this is brilliant! You are accusing FWR of being an 'echo chamber'* and at the same time telling FWR posters to get back in their 'echo chamber'

I'm confused ... 'echo chambers' - good or bad? Should we stay in them or get out of them? Should we engage with dissenting views or make them unwelcome?

*FWR isn't an echo chamber

@LangClegsInSpace

there were over 600 votes when I last looked. Seems like people are quite interested in these topics to be fair

MintyMabel, JingsMahBucket and the others who’ve complained about this thread being in AIBU: I’m not a frequenter of the feminism board, and I very much DO welcome this post being in AIBU, which has brought it to my attention.

As the mother of a DD in school, I very much want to be kept in the loop about how this issue might be presented to her, and I expect I’m not the only one.

So please don’t try to censor it.

As far as I’m aware it’s not contra to the rules on what can be posted in AIBU, and given it concerns education in schools, it’s of relevance to a large number of site users, I would have thought.

I increasingly am inclined to think that any lobbying organisations should not be in schools, and activist type groups need to be either kept out or seriously limited in some way.

And yes, that is groups that promote things I agree with, as well.

So long as something in society is politically or socially controversial, it's really not the place of the state to be telling people's kids what to think about it. Yes, parents can disagree at home and try and give a different perspective, but they should not have to be seen to be undermining people who supposedly have some authority to teach. It isn't good for the parents, or the school.

It is always the same few posters who come and scold women for raising concerns about safeguarding. Telling mothers to shut up and get back in their box.

George Watson's College are getting in a terrible muddle with their 'gender neutral' (aka mixed sex) toilets. From the link @rogdmum posted:

Speaker 4
Yes, so there is, there’s a sign and like, everyone’s really aware of it, like across the school the pupils know where it is and different things, but it’s just that it’s been in some ways, like used by say, like, a group of S6 boys that, you know, could appear predominantly, maybe start to use that toilet and then socially that it pushes out, perhaps, you know. But yeah, I think what you said there was helpful about it, it’s definitely something we need to talk a bit more about.

Speaker 1 – Education Capacity Building Officer, LGBT Youth Scotland
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think in terms of pupils that shouldn’t be accessing it that, ah, it can be challenging, too, because there could be a real reason why that particular individual is accessing that toilet. So, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily, try not to jump to the conclusion that they’re you know, kind of well, taking, you know, pulling your leg, so to speak. So even engaging with those individual pupils, like, do you know why we have this particular facility? You know, the reason we have it is because of a, b, and c, and it’s really important that the pupils that need to access it, you know, feel safe to do so. So I think engaging kind of all pupils around the use is really important.

forwomen.scot/13/12/2020/george-watsons-college-staff-transgender-training/

I cannot pretzel my brain enough to make sense of this logic and I cannot get over the sheer hypocrisy of the school's policy or LGBT Youth Scotland's advice.

Plus, this belongs in the echo chamber, where dissenting views are very much unwelcome - as much as people will whine and moan that they are open for debate

Translation = shit. Look how many people are reading/voting on these threads. All consistently 92%+ on the same side as those witches.

Because in the real world people don't like being dictated to about what the must believe.

Our children should be taught that some people need to change their appearance to feel comfortable with themselves and be respectful.
Our children should not be force fed the bullshit that they can change sex. They should not be told that everyone has a 'gender identity' and they must choose one.
Our daughters must be free to assert their own, legally protected, boundaries.

Finding it amazing that 8% of voters think safeguarding guidance in schools should be overridden by a lobby group! Anyone care to explain why they think that's acceptable? Or say why it shouldn't even be discussed here?

Hahaha this is brilliant! You are accusing FWR of being an 'echo chamber' and at the same time telling FWR posters to get back in their 'echo chamber'*

We're doing the FWR Okey Cokey!

Finding it amazing that 8% of voters think safeguarding guidance in schoolsshouldbe overridden by a lobby group! Anyone care to explain why they think that's acceptable? Or say why it shouldn't even be discussed here?

Or why the trans kids they think they are standing up for , aren't deserving of the same safeguarding applied to the other children.

Bold fail there.

YANBU btw OP.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Had a look at the Transgender Trend material. Very confusing. It definitely seems to be promoting a 'Dont talk about it' attitude which is Section 28ish to me. The attached paragraph I find very contradictory. It says that censorship and silencing is bad (true) while saying that teachers should have a scripted 'shut down' phrases ready to stop talk of transgender pupils...what?

I find the top paragraph about not 'fixing' children's emotions laughable. Teachers' work lives revolve around the wellbeing of students and asking them to not get involved is unrealistic.

As an educator I find the whole document totally out of touch with reality and how schools actually operate.

If you are an educator, you come across as a poor one, without critical thinking skills. If anyone is out of touch, it is you.

From the Transgender Trend "About Us" page:

We are an organisation of parents, professionals and academics based in the UK who are concerned about the current trend to diagnose children as transgender, including the unprecedented number of teenage girls suddenly self-identifying as ‘trans’ (Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria or ROGD). We are also concerned about legislation which places transgender rights above the right to safety for girls and young women in public toilets and changing rooms along with fairness for girls in sport.

We have no religious or political affiliation. We come from diverse backgrounds, and our team includes teachers and safeguarding professionals, academics and parents, some of whom were themselves extreme gender non-conforming children and adolescents, some whose own children have self-diagnosed as ‘trans’ and some who know supportive trans adults who are also questioning recent theories of ‘transgenderism.’ Unfortunately because of the current climate our team members have to remain anonymous for the protection of their children or their jobs.

On Stephanie Davies-Arai Founder of Transgender Trend:

Stephanie Davies-Arai is a communication skills trainer and author of Communicating with Kids. She has worked with parents and teachers for over twenty years, including eight years at a primary school in East Sussex in various roles including parent governor. She is an experienced speaker on parenting, feminism and ‘transgender’ children. She has spoken at events around the UK, including in the House of Commons and the House of Lords and has been interviewed across the media, including BBC Woman’s Hour, The Today programme and Newsnight. She founded the organisation Transgender Trend in 2015 and produced a schools guide Supporting gender diverse and trans-identified students in schools in 2018, for which she was shortlisted for the John Maddox prize 2018, an award which “recognises the work of individuals who promote sound science and evidence on a matter of public interest, facing difficulty or hostility in doing so.” Stephanie has contributed chapters to Transgender Children and Young People: Born in Your Own Body and Inventing Transgender Children and Young People, both collections of essays edited by Heather Brunskell-Evans and Michele Moore, published by Cambridge Scholars.

On author Rachel Rooney who has collaborated with Transgender Trend to produce a book, My Body is Me :

I trained and worked for many years as a teacher of children with special needs

Go on then, Ijustreallywantacat , let us know what experience you have in this issue that makes you more qualified than them.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Forgot to attach image

I read that quote very differently. It's nuanced making a difference between a young primary child quietly asking why Billy is now called Maria who will need a response versus the 14 year old late to a lesson and disrupting it. It reminds teachers that they don't have to respond to all questions when a child demands it - even about trans issues - but they can delay / not respond to a question that aims to disrupt a lesson or possibly bully another child.

I do wonder rather a lot about the agendas of individuals who wish to shut down the discussion of potential safeguarding issues on one of the most visited boards of a parenting site.

YANBU - Stonewall hate and want to erase women

See, it's this type of hyperbole that people object to.
How are they "erasing women?"
I don't suddenly become not a woman any more and drop out of existence, or become any less of one by accepting people who are trans.

@JoodyBlue

Section 28 aimed to deny gay people their right to be who are they, it was terrible and rightly fought against. There is no such legislation in place currently denying trans people rights. In fact society is embracing trans people more than at any other time and rightly so. Yet there is a concerted effort from Stonewall and organisations like it to change the way that young people understand their sex and sexuality and impose a rigid stereotypical idea of gender upon them. There is further an ideological push into language change. Change in language changes people's ideas. People are allowed to push back. We have to live together we don't do it by imposing ideas and then claiming this is the way things have always been and it is now the law. Attitudes change through persuasion of good ideas. If they are good for a society as a whole, attitudes usually do change.

Excellently put.

Rachel Rooney reading "My Body is Me* . Do enlighten us on what is wrong with the message in this book:

www.transgendertrend.com/rachel-rooney-reads-my-body-is-me-2/

@Quaagars

YANBU - Stonewall hate and want to erase women

See, it's this type of hyperbole that people object to.
How are they "erasing women?"
I don't suddenly become not a woman any more and drop out of existence, or become any less of one by accepting people who are trans.

Campaigning to remove women's sex based rights and telling lesbians that we must now accept born males as sexual partners is not respectful and certainly not empowering women. Why anyone would want an organisation promoting these values working with children in schools defies belief.

How are they "erasing women?"
I don't suddenly become not a woman any more and drop out of existence, or become any less of one by accepting people who are trans

Because you cant fix what you cant see.

How do you fix sexism, racism etc if you cant name who it's happening too.

How do you help kids falling behind or missing school or being deprived of going on trips or whatever if yr seven girls from ethnic backgrounds or the teenage boys being excessively injured in rugby become some undefinable group.

How are they "erasing women?"

Are lesbians not women, @quaagars? When Stonewall states that people are 'gender attracted' rather than sex, isn't that erasure of the very idea of being a lesbian - a sex based attraction to other women? Or are you saying that lesbians indeed have to accept that women they date may have penises attached and they have no right to turn that down as a possibility?