AIBU to think that women should be able to request same-sex provision?

[Glinner]

The tweet below is astonishing for two reasons. First of all, as the poster points out, this is the NURSING AND MIDWIFERY COUNCIL saying that one's sex is 'assigned' at birth. They said this out loud! As part of their evidence to the GRA enquiry!

But aside from that nonsense, what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not? I wonder how many of that number are fully intact males?

You might remember when Clare Dimyon requested a same-sex nurse to attend her during her mammogram, the NHS responded in the most extraordinary way--they took her name off the letter and published it in official literature as an example of a 'bigoted' request.

One thing for which we should be grateful to Eddie Izzard: Now we are under no doubt that in many cases 'trans' means, simply, 'crossdresser'. Are these 'trans' nurses, midwives and nursing assistants crossdressers? Are women within their rights to request that crossdressing men not be present during intimate exams and so on? If a woman makes this request, will she be committing a hate crime?

Here's the Clare Dimyon story

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

twitter.com/Sexnotgender_/status/1357034763039686662

@Purplepeonies RE: I'm just conflicted because I also believe that trans women are women.

Women are the class of human with the anatomy that produce, carry, birth and feed babies, even if the ability or desire to do that is not present - yet it is the common denomination of woman. If you are using a four word mantra as your education, I think that is where your conflict is arising.

Is it unreasonable for a man to ask for a male HCP to perform a prostrate exam?

@poorbuthappy

Is it unreasonable for a man to ask for a male HCP to perform a prostrate exam?

No, not at all. But I wonder how he'd feel if an obvious woman showed up, and he wasn't allowed to mention it.

Here's a welcome response to the related issue of single-sex wards from Lewisham & Greenham NHS.

www.lewishamandgreenwich.nhs.uk/same-sex-accomodation/

If any of you are on here, .

@poorbuthappy

Is it unreasonable for a man to ask for a male HCP to perform a prostrate exam?

No of course not. I’m not sure anyone has suggested it is.

Of course not poor why would it be?

I know my DH who is very shy and hates being touched generally would hate to have a prostate exam from a woman.

@Datun - absolutely.
If it's wrong for women to request and get then it's also wrong for men to request and get.

Still waiting for all the cancer charities / health boards etc to update their literature to remove the word man....it's odd how that's not transphobic isn't it?

@gardenbird48

But I have always been able to e.g. ask to see a female GP. So what changed? I am fine with the NHS ring fencing jobs for females too if the demand for males in these roles is so low. I see no need for male midwives to be recruited and trained unless they can be effectively deployed without this kind of issue arising.

How long have you got? Basically there has been a very stealthy push within the NHS (and every public body) to change policy to enable people to self identify as whichever ‘gender’ they prefer. This allows male bodied transgender people to choose to be placed on women’s wards (even if they only id as female part time). This results in a hospital taking a letter from a patient requesting a same sex hcp and posting it in training material as an example of unacceptable ‘transphobia’.

This results in female staff having to change uniform in the same space as a male identifying as a female and being banned from objection under threat of their job.

This results in one hospital trust making a safeguarding provision to mitigate the risks of a male sex offender being placed on a female ward by saying that he ‘may’ be prescribed anti-libidinous drugs.

This results in frontline nursing staff being banned from discussing with female patients why there is a person with a male body in the bed next to them in breach of the single sex accommodation policy (except that breaches for that particular reason are inexplicably not recorded)

They also are replacing protected characteristics in their equality policies (or missing them out altogether). So Sex usually gets dropped and the NMC (Nursing and Midwifery Council) has dropped Pregnancy and Maternity in its latest review of discrimination in its staff. They have introduced two new pcs - gender (legally undefined) and gender identity (also not in the Ea 2010 and legally undefined) and are in grave risk of action against them as they are not complying with the law.

There is a major effort by some very influential organisations to remove single sections exemptions from the Equality Act 2010 and the resulting safeguards and protections.

Women are fighting back.

Sorry - 'What's changed?' was sort of rhetorical in that I know what has changed - people started pretending they believed TWAW - but actually not rhetorical because nothing has actually changed except that a pp wants me to believe that it's far far too complex to provide women to do fanjo work and Aneurin Bevan will be cross with me if I request one

We are talking about women having the right to request a same sex hcp
No issue at all with a right to request, but sadly many confuse right to request and entitlement. Same with requesting flexible working which all workers can request but then shouting I fairness when they are told it's not possible.

Right now, I am not fussed about the sex of who carries out an intimate examination.

But I want the right to refuse to have an intimate examination carried out by someone who makes me uncomfortable, for whatever reason. To date, this has not been an issue but I want to be able to make that choice if I have to.

And I want women to be able to make that choice without being labelled 'bigoted' or 'transphobic'.

I'm still incredulous at this

What is intimidating about a biological man? Is it his penis or his stereotypically male characteristics?

What's intimidating is that men as a social class are fucking dangerous and every single one of them is a threat by default until proven otherwise.

Take a quick peek at the rapes, beatings, abuse and harassment that we know of and ask yourself why we should stay in the water reminding ourselves that Not All Sharks Are Like That in order to validate the shark.

@dontdisturbmenow

We are talking about women having the right to request a same sex hcp No issue at all with a right to request, but sadly many confuse right to request and entitlement. Same with requesting flexible working which all workers can request but then shouting I fairness when they are told it's not possible.

Great. You'll be a YANBU vote then.

@MerchedCymru

Here's a welcome response to the related issue of single-sex wards from Lewisham & Greenham NHS.

www.lewishamandgreenwich.nhs.uk/same-sex-accomodation/

If any of you are on here, .

That is potentially good news but I strongly advise you to check their policies on supporting transgender patients.

The same sex accommodation policy in our area is similar to above but what isn’t immediately apparent is that the Supporting Transgender Patients policy takes precedence and counts as female any male who wishes to identify as female, even on a part time basis. So they are not breaching the single sex accommodation policy, they just count males as female. And don’t record that as a breach - so no data.

The policy also explicitly states that if there is any conflict in needs between women and a transgender patient, the requirements of the transgender will always take precedence.

Interestingly, an influential member of the steering group that shapes policy for the whole region is a male bodied transgender person who also gives talks to menopausal women on hrt and has a blog where they make it very clear how they feel about many women. They were involved in the protests against (I think) a Fair Play For Women meeting in Bristol.

flexible working which all workers can request but then shouting I fairness when they are told it's not possible.

Yea, but question sometimes is why is it not possible and why is it possible for some and ‘not possible’ for others.

So what do you expect HCP to say or do?

Advocate for patients! This is part of your professional duty!

How about upholding point ONE of the code for starters?!

https://www.nmc.org.uk/globalassets/sitedocuments/nmc-publications/nmc-code.pdf

1 Treat people as individuals and uphold their dignity
To achieve this, you must:
1.1 treat people with kindness, respect and compassion
1.2 make sure you deliver the fundamentals of care effectively
1.3 avoid making assumptions and recognise diversity and individual choice
1.4 make sure that any treatment, assistance or care for which you are responsible is delivered without undue delay
1.5 respect and uphold people’s human rights

This seems to have been completely disregarded!

Is it unreasonable for a man to ask for a male HCP to perform a prostrate exam? no definitely not unreasonable

Just noticing the ratio is hovering around 11% whilst the number of votes goes steadily up. So while that's still a small percentage it reflects an ever growing number of voters who believe women have no right to request a female HCP and yet somehow cannot find the words to express why, on this anonymous forum.

Good point garden - definitions are slippery these days. I take it you are in the Bristol area? Serious levels of misogyny in that neck of the woods, but prettily dressed in pastel blue and pink.

A number of our members have been at the receiving end of their masked protests - one against a public meeting to discuss 'Writing against the patriarchy' as I recall. Oh how we chuckled at the irony as we hurried past the threats and placards.

I'd vote YANBU, as of course women should be able to choose to have a woman if they so prefer looking after them, but let's not be under any pretence going by the other threads and the comments on here, it's more like "I don't want to have to have trans women near me".
Which is a whole other argument but worded "innocently" for anyone not seeing trans threads before.

@Dutch1e
I'm sorry, you probably have had some bad experiences, but I think what you have said is sexist and offensive. YES I believe we should protect women, YES I acknowledge the statistics but I am strongly in the "not all men" camp I'm afraid.

@Quaagars

I'd vote YANBU, as of course women should be able to choose to have a woman if they so prefer looking after them, but let's not be under any pretence going by the other threads and the comments on here, it's more like "I don't want to have to have trans women near me". Which is a whole other argument but worded "innocently" for anyone not seeing trans threads before.

Quaag - did you notice that this is about choosing same sex provision? So I am female and I want to choose another female as opposed to a male hcp (and I support the converse for men obviously).

What has that got to do with transgender people?

@Quaagars

I'd vote YANBU, as of course women should be able to choose to have a woman if they so prefer looking after them, but let's not be under any pretence going by the other threads and the comments on here, it's more like "I don't want to have to have trans women near me". Which is a whole other argument but worded "innocently" for anyone not seeing trans threads before.

And this is exactly the attitude that has led to this inexcusable situation - where Women are made to feel it's 'transphobic' or 'bigoted' to request a FEMALE health-care professional or same-sex ward.

This poster does not understand and doesn't care about the needs of Women at their most vulnerable times - giving birth, undergoing treatment for serious illness, hospitalisation. It's an unforgivable manipulation of the truth.

If posters could make clear in the thread titles that the thread is another one about trans issues that would be really helpful to those of us who would rather wade through cold sick than have to read yet another MN trans debate.

I actually think that men of any variety should be barred from working in maternity or gynaecology in any capacity

Why?
If they're good at what they do?
I've had lots of lovely male doctors.
The only doctor I have actually gone out of my way to say "just not so and so doctor" when they asked if I had a preference when it came to booking an appointment was a female one who was absolutely awful.
Surely that's taking away choice from women too, who would prefer a male doctor, and I thought "we" (general we) were against taking choice away?

What has that got to do with transgender people?

Maybe ask all the people in the comments talking about transgender people?

@WendyTestaburger

Just noticing the ratio is hovering around 11% whilst the number of votes goes steadily up. So while that's still a small percentage it reflects an ever growing number of voters who believe women have no right to request a female HCP and yet somehow cannot find the words to express why, on this anonymous forum.

I haven't voted, I would have voted for people having the right to request a same sex or opposite sex HCP. It isn't that I'm against women being able to request same sex it is that I'd favour the broader policy so I felt neither answer applied to me. Don't know why people would vote against, I feel that requesting something is generally reasonable.