AIBU to think that women should be able to request same-sex provision?

[Glinner]

The tweet below is astonishing for two reasons. First of all, as the poster points out, this is the NURSING AND MIDWIFERY COUNCIL saying that one's sex is 'assigned' at birth. They said this out loud! As part of their evidence to the GRA enquiry!

But aside from that nonsense, what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not? I wonder how many of that number are fully intact males?

You might remember when Clare Dimyon requested a same-sex nurse to attend her during her mammogram, the NHS responded in the most extraordinary way--they took her name off the letter and published it in official literature as an example of a 'bigoted' request.

One thing for which we should be grateful to Eddie Izzard: Now we are under no doubt that in many cases 'trans' means, simply, 'crossdresser'. Are these 'trans' nurses, midwives and nursing assistants crossdressers? Are women within their rights to request that crossdressing men not be present during intimate exams and so on? If a woman makes this request, will she be committing a hate crime?

Here's the Clare Dimyon story

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

twitter.com/Sexnotgender_/status/1357034763039686662

No quaagars

That's really disrespectful. How dare you try and frame women discussing their need to be seen by a woman as transphobia.

A transwoman who is open about being a transwoman is as welcome as most other male bodied person to be near me. ie Most of the time, as my friend, neighbour or colleague : just fine. On a few occasions where I am going to be alone or naked or otherwise vulnerable: no thank you.

If you have a problem, talk to the trans rights activists (who are not necessarily trans people) who got us into this mess. Not the women requesting occasionally to be allowed to exercise their rights.

@unmarkedbythat

If posters could make clear in the thread titles that the thread is another one about trans issues that would be really helpful to those of us who would rather wade through cold sick than have to read yet another MN trans debate.

You don't think that current trans rights activism (and by that I do not mean all trans people) has affected women's ability to request single sex services?

Have you not read the example about Claire Dimyon?

Or do you not believe women should have the right to request single sex HCPs?

It's a fairly basic topic for a board frequented by so many mothers. Which part offends you?

Quaagars

As I mentioned before, I understand that my opinion is not in keeping with current trends but I believe that a woman who has been traumatised by male violence trumps the woman who doesn’t really mind and had a really lovely male doctor or nurse once.

If any woman does not feel comfortable with any health care professional then she should have the right to request a different one without giving a reason.

A transwoman who is open about being a transwoman is as welcome as most other male bodied person to be near me

That's not usually what I've seen in the comments before, as a lot do not usually want trans women to be able to turn up, and for one comment earlier on the thread said men should be banned altogether from gynaecology type professions (the one I quoted and asked why)

I do appreciate that there are women who would prefer a female doctor, and as I said we should always have the right to choose - I just don't like the way from a lot (not all!) the hostility and outright "no" and prejudice towards trans people from some.

What has that got to do with transgender people?

It should have absolutely nothing to do with them.

Unfortunately, some individuals and some health organisations are prioritising the gender of the employee over the sex, and desire for same-sex treatment, of patients.

DARVO.

Personally I'm fine with male HCPs so a TW would be fine by me. But that's irrelevant to the needs of other women.

I just don't like the way from a lot (not all!) the hostility and outright "no" and prejudice towards trans people from some.

You are wrongly taking 'outright no' as prejudice - that's your issue, not other posters.

For what it's worth, and perhaps stating the obvious here, but this thread is suffering from what all discussions around controversial topics are at risk of getting into; well reasoned arguments getting mixed up with more extreme and (in my opinion) bigoted views. I actually agree that anyone should be allowed to ask for same-(biological) sex HCPs, and that it's wrong to be labelled a bigot in this respect. It doesn't mean you will be able to access the same care in the same timeframe (as Claire notes in her interview around her surgery taking three times as long) but I do think you should also have the option of a same-(biological) sex chaperone. I also think that most transgender HCPs would actually respect this request in the situation - any trans people able to corroborate that?
However, I think this fairly reasonable argument gets damaged when people start name calling and giving the strong impression that they assume a significant proportion of trans people working in healthcare are doing this for some nefarious purpose - that, in my view, is transphobic. I know most people aren't saying that here but there are some pretty transphobic views being discussed here that I think need to be challenged.
Does anyone know if the Sussex board view, represented by the Claire D exams, is actually reflecting the wider NHS position?

Not read beyond the OP but the recent Nursing and Midwifery council review about nursing staff experience of inequalities had none other than Stonewall listed in their list of advisors.
And had gender identity listed in amongst the protected characteristics. And kept referring to gender instead of sex in general.

@Quaagars

I'd vote YANBU, as of course women should be able to choose to have a woman if they so prefer looking after them, but let's not be under any pretence going by the other threads and the comments on here, it's more like "I don't want to have to have trans women near me". Which is a whole other argument but worded "innocently" for anyone not seeing trans threads before.

Not at all.

I had a male MW during my second pregnancy. If he had told me that he was transgender and now preferred to be known by a female name/pronouns it would have made no difference to me.

If I had stated a preference for a MW who was the same sex as me and my male MW had insisted that he was now female, I would not have been happy. The relationship between a woman and her HCP must be based on a position of trust. If my HCP tries to make me believe something that is patently a lie, I would feel unable to trust them with my care/health.

Good post katynps - I agree, that's exactly what I mean, it's where the reasonable is getting mixed up with extreme/ and or bigoted views where the problem lies

I can't help feeling that using about someone such words as "notorious" and "bizarre" tells me more about the person writing than about the person they are writing of.

@unmarkedbythat clear from the title and op imo you didn't have to open or continue reading the thread if you have no interest in doing so, but I suspect it's more a case of you wanting threads discussing this issue - which affects ALL girls and women - to be "hidden away" - NO! This is important and should be in the general mn sections not just the feminism board

I'm also heartily sick of those of us defending the rights of girls and women - and especially traumatised girls and women - being accused of transphobia!

I have friends who are trans and they actually agree with a lot if not all of the elements of practices needed to protect and keep emotionally comfortable women who have good reasons to not want trans women in their sex protected spaces. Ime the majority of them "get it" it's a vocal minority that are arses about all this and they are as offended by them and their actions as we are, mainly as they feel it means trans people are gaining a reputation of being ignorant, dismissive and uncaring towards women and girls who do have concerns and fears. Frankly from discussions with those friends the people they know in real life who are arsey about trans rights they say were ALWAYS arseholes it's nothing to do with them being trans. This is just their latest bandwagon!

Shouldn't it be the case anyway that someone embodying at least three protected characteristics (pregnancy and maternity, sex and religion or belief) should get a higher score in the "entitled" scale than someone embodying only one (gender reassignment) ?

@katnyps However, I think this fairly reasonable argument gets damaged when people start name calling and giving the strong impression that they assume a significant proportion of trans people working in healthcare are doing this for some nefarious purpose - that, in my view, is transphobic.

I agree, it would be.

I know most people aren't saying that here but there are some pretty transphobic views being discussed here that I think need to be challenged.

Has anyone said that here? I haven't read the whole thread so that's a genuine question. What are the other 'transphobic' views being discussed?

I'm really concerned that any attempt to discuss the needs of Women in these and other areas is continually being derailed by unfounded accusations of 'transphobia'. Every time!

I think it should be a choice for women. Especially when it comes to midwives doing the first at-home check a few days after birth.

I was visited by a male midwife (please note not trans, just a genuinely nice, male midwife) without having been asked if I was OK with that. I needed my stitches checked but felt so uncomfortable at the thought of having a man examine my stitches when I was alone with him in my home. I didn’t ask and didn’t get the help I needed. I was too embarrassed to even tell him that I wanted to be checked out by a female midwife.

With my next baby I had a female midwife. I had no issues asking her to check my stitches.

I am usually comfortable with male HCPs, no issues with male gynaecologists etc but I felt extremely vulnerable in the situation I was in and I don’t think it was fair that I wasn’t given the choice.

I recently had a breast exam. Found the person doing it was male and said I was surprised and didn’t really appreciate why the female radiographers were not there as usual. The treatment was very rough and pushy...worse than usual . I went through with it to see if my fears were justified or whether I was being unfair to him. I think he muttered something about equal opportunities. I am writing to the organisation about it. I trust my male doctor and am fairly robust but I did feel worried. No chaperone , probably due to Covid and no one else around. I think we should be given a choice to rebook if we are not comfortable. In an emergency it is more difficult, but I do not like the deception involved if a woman is told they are getting a woman and it’s actually a trans woman who turns up.

@Impatiens
Fair question! To be fair to MN I think some have been taken down but a couple of comments that stand out to me (I only made it up to page 4 rechecking)
One post saying the scenario of being seen by a trans women would be "too sinister" and another stating "What I do think is incredibly U however, is health care proffessionals lying about their sex, in order to perform intimate care on a woman.the alarm bells would be deafening me if that ever happened to me. I’d break the land speed record getting out of there. I couldn’t think of anything more overtly dodgy"
I think both imply what I was referring to - would you interpret differently though?
There was also another post asking why any trans woman would opt to work in female-sexed healthcare at all - which essentially amounts to expecting trans people to self discriminate. No mention in that post of why men would choose to work in that area.

@unmarkedbythat. Why on earth shouldn’t women discuss what we want to discuss here? If you don’t want to, that’s fine but it looks like many do, so just don’t come on and whinge at us.

katnyps
"What I do think is incredibly U however, is health care proffessionals lying about their sex, in order to perform intimate care on a woman.the alarm bells would be deafening me if that ever happened to me. I’d break the land speed record getting out of there. I couldn’t think of anything more overtly dodgy"
I think both imply what I was referring to - would you interpret differently though?

The argument there might run, transgender and transsex are not the same thing, in the same way that gender and sex are not the same thing, so claiming that they are is surely untruth? And telling an untruth is telling a lie? And telling a lie which you know will get you access to vulnerable naked women is probably ever-so-slightly dodgy...

(For which read, dodgy if someone is discovered to be doing it.)

I think overall, it's the idea of deception that most (not all) posters are unhappy about.

Personally, I don't care what sex my hcp is as long as I have the appropriate chaperone there if required. However, being told that asking for a chaperone is transphobic or bigoted because the male hcp identifies as female would be outrageous.

I think the issue of transwomen providing intimate care to women is actually much, much more problematic than men providing this care.

It is at least straightforward for a woman, when presented with the prospect of having intimate care provided by a male, to say no, and to express their preference for a female. (I say "straightforward" and not "easy" because of course, this still isn't an easy thing for many women to say, especially vulnerable women).

But if that woman is put in the situation where a transwoman is providing intimate care, then suddenly the whole dynamic shifts away from what is best for the woman, and becomes about validating the transwoman and fear of saying or doing something that will get them in trouble. How the FUCK is a vulnerable woman supposed to say, "Hang on a minute, I'm sorry, but actually I want a female here, and you are pretty clearly a male?", when we are being told that it is hateful to 'misgender' someone?

I genuinely question the validity of the consent given by a woman in this situation. A woman who has consented to intimate care from a female has not consented to intimate care from a transwoman.

Does anyone know if the Sussex board view, represented by the Claire D exams, is actually reflecting the wider NHS position?

The NHS position is to record gender ID instead of sex. So single sex wards are actually single gender ID wards. So Claire Dimyon, or any of the rest of us, are perfectly entitled to ask for a "female" HCP. It is just that the NHS understands "female" to be a gender ID and not a sex category.

We can all ask for a female HCP but there is no guarantee that we will not be seen by a person who self IDs as female. The NHS would not distinguish between a male bodied person who decided they were trans last week and got HR to update the system or a transexual who had genital surgery a decade ago. And tbh I don't know if I would either To be clear I am talking about the times I am going to be discussing or showing my breasts and or genitals. The majority of my life I am happy to co exist with transwomen, non binary people, and males with or without a gender ID

I don't believe finding this situation concerning is transphobic.

I think it would be more appropriate to be cross with the NHS for having a deceitful policy that is open to being abused. How difficult would it be to record sex AND gender ID? And let's be cross with the males who have treated females so badly that some of us suffer lifelong consequences.

I also believe that trans women are women

Thats fine, I don't believe it, though. You are welcome to belief in any faith, I am also welcome to not believe in it.

Also just want to note that there are currently HCPs identifying as 'female' who were born male. In case anyone thinks this is just hypothetical. One GP practises in London and noted in an interview how women patients would allow more intimate procedures than when said GP identified as a male.

@Quaagars

I actually think that men of any variety should be barred from working in maternity or gynaecology in any capacity

Why?
If they're good at what they do?
I've had lots of lovely male doctors.
The only doctor I have actually gone out of my way to say "just not so and so doctor" when they asked if I had a preference when it came to booking an appointment was a female one who was absolutely awful.
Surely that's taking away choice from women too, who would prefer a male doctor, and I thought "we" (general we) were against taking choice away?

Bloody disingenuous nonsense this. The bastard child of NAMALT and choicey choicey lib fem arseholery with a soupcon of anecdata thrown in for good measure.

And I notice another one from Quagaars is a straw man ('you don't want trans women near you'). Honestly.

Do we just pick from a list of crap argument techniques and then construct something around whatever comes up?

Most some of us don't think TWAW. Get over it.