AIBU to think that women should be able to request same-sex provision?

[Glinner]

The tweet below is astonishing for two reasons. First of all, as the poster points out, this is the NURSING AND MIDWIFERY COUNCIL saying that one's sex is 'assigned' at birth. They said this out loud! As part of their evidence to the GRA enquiry!

But aside from that nonsense, what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not? I wonder how many of that number are fully intact males?

You might remember when Clare Dimyon requested a same-sex nurse to attend her during her mammogram, the NHS responded in the most extraordinary way--they took her name off the letter and published it in official literature as an example of a 'bigoted' request.

One thing for which we should be grateful to Eddie Izzard: Now we are under no doubt that in many cases 'trans' means, simply, 'crossdresser'. Are these 'trans' nurses, midwives and nursing assistants crossdressers? Are women within their rights to request that crossdressing men not be present during intimate exams and so on? If a woman makes this request, will she be committing a hate crime?

Here's the Clare Dimyon story

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

twitter.com/Sexnotgender_/status/1357034763039686662

Anything such as a breast exam and there’s always a chaperone anyway except under proposed changes a transwoman will be legally regarded as a woman and you won’t be able to request a female chaperone “because why do you need 2 women in there”

But for people who mention chaperones - what if the GP is a male doctor, asks if you want a chaperone, and then the nurse chaperone who comes in is a transwoman? exactly

@purplepeonies I don’t actually believe you are genuine I think you’re being goady and offensive! Men - even ones presenting as women, are physically bigger, stronger and a potential threat to women in vulnerable situations like intimate medical exams. What is your true agenda? Why do you think it is right that true consent be removed from PATIENTS?!

Do you think it’s ok if other women feel differently to you?
I think it would be a mistake to assume this poster is a woman despite the “feminine” username

For people like myself (a survivor of csa) this is completely unacceptable. I have gynae isssues, I’m also reaching an age of needing more regular intimate exams as risk of certain conditions increases, plus family history and I absolutely do NOT want a man - however they may present - doing those intimate exams or even discussing such things. I have a female gp precisely BECAUSE I’ve had bad experiences with Male hcps. I will at a push speak to a Male gp about general health matters eg sore throat type thing but anything requiring an intimate exam or discussion of sex based medical issues I always ask for a woman. I would be livid if I were given a trans woman in that circumstance, it’s deceptive and doesn’t meet my needs or consent.

This is about consent and protection. Hcps really ought to know MUCH better and be advocating for patients rights to consensual treatment which is at the heart of good medical practice.

The problem comes with women who don’t consent being labelled bigots etc

@takethecuntoutofscunthorpe you are missing the point - sex is not “assigned” it’s “observed and recorded” as medical FACT - “assigned” means the hcp is making the decision as to the baby’s sex (not gender, sex) which is a total nonsense

As an ex hcp myself AND as a patient who’s experienced and witnessed awful medical misogyny even outside of this issue my concern is labelling patients bigots is the LEAST of it, my concern is this will very likely lead to women patients not being able to access screening and treatment.

I can well see this decision/attitude leading to a huge drop in patients going for smears and breast exams for starters.

This decision if followed through WILL lead to fatalities and that is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE

I think this is particularly likely with women in certain religions/cultures who are already less likely to get screening, early diagnosis and treatment

It’s NOT just about “hurt feelings” or “perceptions” in the medical arena this ideology could well cost women their lives!

You know what I've just noticed? I think there's only ONE respondent is a currently practicing hcp. I find it very telling that the many hcps on mn very rarely post on threads critical of their practices and ideology, funny that.

@dontdisturbmenow

Have any of the 40 ish voters who think that it is not OK for women to request a female HCP explained themselves yet? Because under the pressure the NHS finds itself to offer safe care and meet strict criteria, dealing with midwife and nurses shortage, struggling with staff sickness and working around them, adding that women could request a female only team, when ultimately the NHS can't (and of course shouldn't) refuse to train or recruit men is unrealistic.

Every time a male midwife is on a shift, there would need to be an additional female midwife just in case the male midwife has to be replaced. Add to this the ratio of trainee midwife, who need to be supervised on shift, the fact that we are talking 24/7 shifts, it becomes something impossible to promise and therefore demand unless in very exceptional circumstances.

We are talking about women having the right to request a same sex hcp.

This is not about demanding something that may be restricted due to available resources. I’m sure every woman understands that there may be operational reasons for not being able to grant their request and she could take that into account either by accepting a male in an emergency or by agreeing to wait until a female is available, but that the hospital would do all it could to facilitate her request.

That would be the patient’s choice. You seem to think that the patient shouldn’t even have a choice? Meaning that they are either forced to accept the male or have no treatment at all?

So women who can’t because of trauma or religious beliefs or any other reason are excluded from accessing treatment?

I hope I have misunderstood you.

There is no way on earth I can be comfortable with a male-born person doing breast or vaginal assessment/smears. It’s horrible to accept that I should just go with it and that NHS is not obliged to let me know if a trans woman will be doing this assessment.
I find it mind boggling that we are even discussing this in the 21st century.

I'm just conflicted because I also believe that trans women are women

Please expound. Did they delete their Y chromosome and insert an X one? If I 'feel' like Bill Gates and identify as him, can I go round behaving as he does, including his access to money? No, I'd be sectioned for being delusion. It's not possible for me to be him. So explain how and why a male can 'feel' like and 'identify' as a female and actually be one?

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

"I don't mind who I see" and "what if you were about to die" obviously not counting as a valid explanation. Come on!

I can't for the life of me understand why women who don't mind being cared for by male practitioners (in most cases that would be me too) think they have the right to make that decision for every other woman as well.

Other women don't necessarily feel the same as me. I decide my own boundaries; I don't have a say in how others decide theirs. Other women's rights are not mine to give away.

Why are the 'let's all share and #BeKind' advocates seemingly incapable of comprehending this?

I also can't help but agree - I don't want to but I do - that there's something nefarious about a TW insisting on doing a job that required unfettered access to women's bodies - and screaming 'bigot' when they object - when there are a kazillion other occupations that demand no such insinuation. I've thought about whether I'd be more uncomfortable with a TW performing this kind of examination on me than a man. Unfortunately, although I'd prefer this not to be the case, it's true. And if it's true, that's the fault of the brand of vociferous, misogynistic activism that consistently aims rape threats and other pleasantries at women who don't play along with every word. Their fault. Not mine.

How unsurprising that since being banned from Twitter you’ve found your new home on Mumsnet.

Re this point directed at Glinner. And how unsurprising that you should have gone to all the trouble of stalking him from that site to this. It must have taken a considerable commitment in time and effort. Desperate or what?

Nope - just clicked on the thread and recognised the username. He was pretty notorious on Twitter, you didn’t have to look far to come across one of his bizarre tweets

Of course wanting same sex, intimate health provision isn't unreasonable.

I'd like to know what the alternative is? Your request for a woman for your smear is accommodated, but it turns out not to be a woman, and you are not allowed to say anything? Or are considered wrong for saying something? Or unreasonable?

So you have to pretend they're a woman when you know they're not, during your smear? Or not have your smear because you don't believe in an ideology?

This is bonkers. No one should be forced into a position where they are having to refute an ideology while they are lying on their back for a smear, or going for a mammogram.

He was pretty notorious on Twitter, you didn’t have to look far to come across one of his bizarre tweets

What was bizarre about them?

Lexxa the equalities act isn’t about what happens when two protected groups rights counter each other.

It protects our right to discriminate based on those protected. characteristics. So single sex is protected and we can use that to discriminate against any other protected group, which means single sex= single sex, not single sex plus those with grc.

A person with grc isn’t discriminating against women by using our spaces. So they can’t use that exception.

It isn’t a conflict of rights, our laws protect single sex excemptions. The law is on women’s side, despite the constant reframing of those who present it as ‘two protected groups conflicting’ or the many people/institutions deliberately misrepresenting it or ignoring it all together.

@NotBadConsidering The term “assigned” in relation to intersex/DSDs arose from the way these children were treated in the past. Their genitalia were looked at and it was decided by doctors how they could best “pass” as adults as they were or with some surgical intervention. So for example, a male with a severe micro penis could be “assigned” to be female because it would be “better” for them. A girl with clitoromegaly could be “assigned” as male etc. This decision was made on infants, it was decided what was best for them. Understandably this came under severe criticism. Adults who had this done to them felt their bodies weren’t right, and their autonomy on such decisions was taken from them. They have successfully, and righty in my view, campaigned for much less intervention unless absolutely necessary and for no “assigning” to happen in such circumstances. They have campaigned for hormone treatments and surgery to be delayed until adulthood where possible (if not essential to life beforehand)

This pretty much sums up the baby I was talking about, after days of tests and talking it was decided the baby was female and surgery happened to make her genitals conform. I think her sex was assigned. I'm glad if that isn't happening now as surgically changing their genitals is something I believe the individual should have some say in i.e. the final word. It seemed a pretty brutal surgery for a young baby when it was in no way life threatening.

Good post Graphista

And when we are considering this:

huge drop in patients going for smears and breast exams for starters.

It is not going to be helped by many cancer charities removing the word ‘woman’ from their publicity re female cancers (they don’t do the same for male cancers - I wonder why..).

As I mentioned previously I would be extremely unlikely to attend a smear if it wasn’t going to be with a female and would struggle with a breast examination.

I was referred to a male cancer specialist for a dodgy mole when I was pregnant. Despite it being on the top of my shoulder he made me fully undress and put on a gown and was very abrupt and dismissive. I felt so horrid and vulnerable in front of him that I probably wouldn’t do that again.

I would like the right to request a woman.

Although given the wide umbrella of ‘trans’ that can include any cross dressing male and there’s no reason to think their risk is any different to any other men.

Exactly.

Manicpixiedreammollusc

Care to actually join in with the thread?

I'm really interested to hear more ideas why it's unreasonable for women to request female HCPs. The closest to an actual answer was re the staffing of a maternity unit. When I voted I was thinking of the question in general - for all intimate procedures like smears and breast exams - as well as births.

But re births, surely if it was best practice to allow the choice for a female, with the understanding that an emergency is an emergency, then the hospital would just have to make sure the ratio of male to female midwives on staff was appropriate?

It's not unfeasible, to take into account the needs of the many women who have experienced sexual assault by males and also religious women. And also other women who feel the need to be around women in this most extreme and vulnerable and uniquely female of experiences.

Which is most important when they conflict?

Right of the patient to dignity in their care. Every single time.

YANBU the only time I've had a man perform any intimate services was because he was an absolute specialist but was always chaperoned.

It made me feel hugely uncomfortable none the less.

"I'm just conflicted because I also believe that trans women are women."

That's fascinating @Purplepeonies! Can you tell us more? Do you have any idea what sex anyone is, before they tell you? Do you know how babies are made and which parent gestated you?
Do you know which sex you are and how to access appropriate healthcare for the body parts you have? And if you think you know, how are you sure?

@dontdisturbmenow

Have any of the 40 ish voters who think that it is not OK for women to request a female HCP explained themselves yet? Because under the pressure the NHS finds itself to offer safe care and meet strict criteria, dealing with midwife and nurses shortage, struggling with staff sickness and working around them, adding that women could request a female only team, when ultimately the NHS can't (and of course shouldn't) refuse to train or recruit men is unrealistic.

Every time a male midwife is on a shift, there would need to be an additional female midwife just in case the male midwife has to be replaced. Add to this the ratio of trainee midwife, who need to be supervised on shift, the fact that we are talking 24/7 shifts, it becomes something impossible to promise and therefore demand unless in very exceptional circumstances.

But I have always been able to e.g. ask to see a female GP. So what changed? I am fine with the NHS ring fencing jobs for females too if the demand for males in these roles is so low. I see no need for male midwives to be recruited and trained unless they can be effectively deployed without this kind of issue arising.

ancientgran
20 plus years ago Chromosome testing was not easily available
now it is

In the 70's we called men competing in women's sports CHEATS
East German shot put etc
now we are supposed to admire them

It has never been easier to check and record the sex of an individual

It is scary that certain individuals get their affirmation
by infringing the rights
of the other sex

It is not going to be helped by many cancer charities removing the word ‘woman’ from their publicity re female cancers

Totally agree, such actions are a Fucking disgrace and frankly an insult to the women they claim to represent

Medical misogyny is already and has for many years made the treatment of women far more difficult and ineffective than it should be. This latest development will make things worse not better. This is NOT progress

I don’t think it’s that unusual that many HCP’s don’t feel able to speak out or identify publicly as an HCP who is gender critical when this is the message that their regulatory body are aligning themselves with.

I am a HCP.
I dint agree with the idea that a woman has to accept a TW as a HCP ‘because they are women too’.

However, you also work within in certain structure. There isn’t a lot of leeway in the nhs for example. So what do you expect HCP to say or do?

In a life or death situation, I think I'd just be grateful to anyone equipped to save me, BUT....I always request a female nurse for my smear, I've never had any problems with this request.

Nope - just clicked on the thread and recognised the username.

Of course you did.

But I have always been able to e.g. ask to see a female GP. So what changed? I am fine with the NHS ring fencing jobs for females too if the demand for males in these roles is so low. I see no need for male midwives to be recruited and trained unless they can be effectively deployed without this kind of issue arising.

How long have you got? Basically there has been a very stealthy push within the NHS (and every public body) to change policy to enable people to self identify as whichever ‘gender’ they prefer. This allows male bodied transgender people to choose to be placed on women’s wards (even if they only id as female part time). This results in a hospital taking a letter from a patient requesting a same sex hcp and posting it in training material as an example of unacceptable ‘transphobia’.

This results in female staff having to change uniform in the same space as a male identifying as a female and being banned from objection under threat of their job.

This results in one hospital trust making a safeguarding provision to mitigate the risks of a male sex offender being placed on a female ward by saying that he ‘may’ be prescribed anti-libidinous drugs.

This results in frontline nursing staff being banned from discussing with female patients why there is a person with a male body in the bed next to them in breach of the single sex accommodation policy (except that breaches for that particular reason are inexplicably not recorded)

They also are replacing protected characteristics in their equality policies (or missing them out altogether). So Sex usually gets dropped and the NMC (Nursing and Midwifery Council) has dropped Pregnancy and Maternity in its latest review of discrimination in its staff. They have introduced two new pcs - gender (legally undefined) and gender identity (also not in the Ea 2010 and legally undefined) and are in grave risk of action against them as they are not complying with the law.

There is a major effort by some very influential organisations to remove single sections exemptions from the Equality Act 2010 and the resulting safeguards and protections.

Women are fighting back.

Women should absolutely be able to request same sex provision and without having to disclose their reason(s) for that preference.