AIBU to think that women should be able to request same-sex provision?

[Glinner]

The tweet below is astonishing for two reasons. First of all, as the poster points out, this is the NURSING AND MIDWIFERY COUNCIL saying that one's sex is 'assigned' at birth. They said this out loud! As part of their evidence to the GRA enquiry!

But aside from that nonsense, what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not? I wonder how many of that number are fully intact males?

You might remember when Clare Dimyon requested a same-sex nurse to attend her during her mammogram, the NHS responded in the most extraordinary way--they took her name off the letter and published it in official literature as an example of a 'bigoted' request.

One thing for which we should be grateful to Eddie Izzard: Now we are under no doubt that in many cases 'trans' means, simply, 'crossdresser'. Are these 'trans' nurses, midwives and nursing assistants crossdressers? Are women within their rights to request that crossdressing men not be present during intimate exams and so on? If a woman makes this request, will she be committing a hate crime?

Here's the Clare Dimyon story

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

twitter.com/Sexnotgender_/status/1357034763039686662

I have no problem with male doctors and nurses and midwives.

I have a problem with doctors and nurses and midwives pretending to be something they are not.

@ListeningQuietly

I have no problem with male doctors and nurses and midwives.

I have a problem with doctors and nurses and midwives pretending to be something they are not.

I have no problem with them either. The concern I have is women requesting female only care and not receiving it.

I haven't voted.

Of course you are not being unreasonable to say that same sex provision should be a legitimate choice. You are being unreasonable to imply that the statement from the NMC means that the vast majority of nurses and midwives don't think that or that they believe sex is assigned and TWAW etc.

That is on a par with implying that any British person agrees with statements issued by the government.

What a thorough and informative post OP. I'm so glad you posted this.
Of course, YANBU.

By the time I had a male obstetrician come and help with two difficult deliveries, I couldn’t have given a flying fuck what bits they were born with. And TBH I don’t think I’d have cared anyway.

Incidentally the only rough and unkind treatment I ever received during labour was from a female obstetrician.

@Kitdeluca1

Sorry sex is assigned at birth.

Is "sorry sex" another way of saying "make-up sex"?

Asking for a friend.

Hugely grateful to you @Glinner for continuing to shine a light on behalf of women, despite taking so many insults and experiencing so many difficulties because of it. You are a hero! True true courage.

Great interview here on the subject of sex and the term "sex assigned at birth" womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/21/biological-sex-is-not-a-spectrum-there-are-only-two-sexes-in-humans-with-claire-graham/

Of course you are not being unreasonable to say that same sex provision should be a legitimate choice. You are being unreasonable to imply that the statement from the NMC means that the vast majority of nurses and midwives don't think that or that they believe sex is assigned and TWAW etc.

A very fair point. I wasn't thinking of that part so much. Sorry.

However, as a parallel example. I work with several therapists who are all BACP or UKCP registered. Those two organisations assert that sex is assigned at birth, TWAW, and that, crucially, providing proper psychotherapy to kids who say they are trans is "conversion therapy" and not allowed. So whilst my colleagues don't believe all that, how they actually work has to be seen to be within those beliefs otherwise they risk losing their professional membership and jobs. So it does affect how they work.

"I don't mind who I see" and "what if you were about to die" obviously not counting as a valid explanation. Come on!

I can't for the life of me understand why women who don't mind being cared for by male practitioners (in most cases that would be me too) think they have the right to make that decision for every other woman as well.

Other women don't necessarily feel the same as me. I decide my own boundaries; I don't have a say in how others decide theirs. Other women's rights are not mine to give away.

Why are the 'let's all share and #BeKind' advocates seemingly incapable of comprehending this?

I also can't help but agree - I don't want to but I do - that there's something nefarious about a TW insisting on doing a job that required unfettered access to women's bodies - and screaming 'bigot' when they object - when there are a kazillion other occupations that demand no such insinuation. I've thought about whether I'd be more uncomfortable with a TW performing this kind of examination on me than a man. Unfortunately, although I'd prefer this not to be the case, it's true. And if it's true, that's the fault of the brand of vociferous, misogynistic activism that consistently aims rape threats and other pleasantries at women who don't play along with every word. Their fault. Not mine.

How unsurprising that since being banned from Twitter you’ve found your new home on Mumsnet.

Re this point directed at Glinner. And how unsurprising that you should have gone to all the trouble of stalking him from that site to this. It must have taken a considerable commitment in time and effort. Desperate or what?

BACP, who put out a guide to gender identity and relationships by a non binary person, that asserted that being a (stereotype of a) northern woman was masculine in character.

@nothingcomestonothing

FFS! Nothing is 'assigned' at birth, it's not a fucking lottery! Just another example of how ideologically captured healthcare is in this country.

As several PP have said, my preference would be female sexed professional, then male sexed professional with chaperone, male born person performing their version of female never. I am not here to validate your identity, especially when I'm the patient and you're the care giver!

The entitlement just blows me away. Who was that trans GP boasting about how female Muslim patients didn't used to let him perform intimate exams, but now he's a she they do? Thinking about those women patients makes me so angry, their dignity and their religious and cultural beliefs overridden to validate the person supposedly there to care for them. I fucking hate it.

Absolutely agree

How unsurprising that since being banned from Twitter you’ve found your new home on Mumsnet.

He was posting on MN well before he was banned from Twitter, actually.

XXY - Klinefelter Syndrome - is not an intersex condition. They are unequivocally male. Same with all of the chromosomal aneuploidies affecting X and Y. Those with XO are unequivocally women with Turner Syndrome. XXX, trisomy X are unequivocally women.

The term “assigned” in relation to intersex/DSDs arose from the way these children were treated in the past. Their genitalia were looked at and it was decided by doctors how they could best “pass” as adults as they were or with some surgical intervention. So for example, a male with a severe micro penis could be “assigned” to be female because it would be “better” for them. A girl with clitoromegaly could be “assigned” as male etc. This decision was made on infants, it was decided what was best for them. Understandably this came under severe criticism. Adults who had this done to them felt their bodies weren’t right, and their autonomy on such decisions was taken from them. They have successfully, and righty in my view, campaigned for much less intervention unless absolutely necessary and for no “assigning” to happen in such circumstances. They have campaigned for hormone treatments and surgery to be delayed until adulthood where possible (if not essential to life beforehand). This is the exact opposite of what trans activists are campaigning for for children; they want children to be treated as young as possible. This is why intersex advocates have asked to be left out of the debate.

However, nearly all intersex/DSDs are male or female, regardless of the appearance of the external genitalia. This can be determined within days of a baby being born with rapid FISH for chromosomes and an ultrasound to look for gonads, which are what determine a person’s sex.

Nearly every baby can have their sex accurately observed and recorded at birth. Those very rare babies with genuine ambiguity - much less that the 1% or “red hair” myth - can have their sex determined shortly after, and recorded. Even more rarely sex may not be revealed until much later, such as with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.

So in answer to the OP, for a council representing midwives and nurses to state babies are “assigned” at birth is reprehensible. It’s anti-science. And worst of all, it’s not just them who are guilty. It’s actually been written into legislation in some places. We are living in a world where the same governments telling us all to listen to the science on things like Covid vaccines are also telling us doctors and midwives trot around birthing suites and maternity units with a sorting hat picking and choosing what sex to “assign” to babies on any given day.

It’s a bonkers world.

[quote pumpkinbump]fairplayforwomen.com/penis/[/quote]
The data is very old relating to when treatment and services for transsexuals was not good.

The same paper also shows an increase in violent crime in trans men (f2m) compared to women.

The later cohort did not and cannot be disaggregated. So you cannot draw any conclusion. It does not in any way show that transsexual women are a high risk to women.

Although given the wide umbrella of ‘trans’ that can include any cross dressing male and there’s no reason to think their risk is any different to any other men.

YANBU women should be able to request same sex provision. Anyone can request same sex provision and they do.

YANBU, OP.

I suffered horribly from a misogynistic bully of an ob-gyn. I would now request female only care, and by female I mean women.

@AngelicInnocent

I haven't voted.

Of course you are not being unreasonable to say that same sex provision should be a legitimate choice. You are being unreasonable to imply that the statement from the NMC means that the vast majority of nurses and midwives don't think that or that they believe sex is assigned and TWAW etc.

That is on a par with implying that any British person agrees with statements issued by the government.

A fair point. It might be useful for NMC members to point that out to the leadership who have spoken on their behalf to support self id in the latest GRA consultation.

Self id would guarantee that no woman gets any choice in the sex of their HCP (especially as more hospitals seem to be ignoring the single sex exemptions specified in the EA 2010 in any case)

Have any of the 40 ish voters who think that it is not OK for women to request a female HCP explained themselves yet?
Because under the pressure the NHS finds itself to offer safe care and meet strict criteria, dealing with midwife and nurses shortage, struggling with staff sickness and working around them, adding that women could request a female only team, when ultimately the NHS can't (and of course shouldn't) refuse to train or recruit men is unrealistic.

Every time a male midwife is on a shift, there would need to be an additional female midwife just in case the male midwife has to be replaced. Add to this the ratio of trainee midwife, who need to be supervised on shift, the fact that we are talking 24/7 shifts, it becomes something impossible to promise and therefore demand unless in very exceptional circumstances.

I don't mind curry. So does that give me the right to tell my husband, 'Well, because I don't mind it, you have to not mind it and eat it, too'? The fuck it does. Women's rights are not yours to give away.

I wonder how many of these eager assistants who are 'fine' with even a trained monkey providing healthcare would be if they realised that any male who suddenly decides he is a woman just because he feels it is so will have unchaperoned access to female bodies and if you, the patient, have a problem with it you're a bigot who shouldn't be treated.

Is there any other delusion on the planet that is accorded this much leeway? Why the cognitive dissonance on this one?

If someone self-id'd as a 13-year-old when they're in fact 50, do you think that should mean they're entitled to date your own 13-year-old? Because that's exactly what's going on here, males are saying, 'Well, I'm a woman because I feel like it, therefore I should have unfettered access to female bodies (including those of children) or you're a bigot who shouldn't be treated'.

DF was a GP obstetrician many years ago. He was much loved by so many women patients for his empathy and kindness. I've also had a wonderful male GP who I trusted completely. For those reasons I have no problem with male HCP.

But I totally support the right of any woman to insist on female HCP for intimate examinations.

I may be fine with male HCP but I would strongly object to receiving care from a male who identifies as a woman. To my mind it bespeaks a sinister and unhealthy attitude towards female bodies.

Post of the day MarieV!

*A male obstetrician saved my life and dc1's. I am glad he was there! A male nurse was on hand as well - also very happy to have him on the team.&

Fantastic. what about the women who aren't happy with it though? Do you agree that they have the right to ask for same sex medical provision?

I'm just conflicted because I also believe that trans women are women

FFS