AIBU to think that women should be able to request same-sex provision?

[Glinner]

The tweet below is astonishing for two reasons. First of all, as the poster points out, this is the NURSING AND MIDWIFERY COUNCIL saying that one's sex is 'assigned' at birth. They said this out loud! As part of their evidence to the GRA enquiry!

But aside from that nonsense, what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not? I wonder how many of that number are fully intact males?

You might remember when Clare Dimyon requested a same-sex nurse to attend her during her mammogram, the NHS responded in the most extraordinary way--they took her name off the letter and published it in official literature as an example of a 'bigoted' request.

One thing for which we should be grateful to Eddie Izzard: Now we are under no doubt that in many cases 'trans' means, simply, 'crossdresser'. Are these 'trans' nurses, midwives and nursing assistants crossdressers? Are women within their rights to request that crossdressing men not be present during intimate exams and so on? If a woman makes this request, will she be committing a hate crime?

Here's the Clare Dimyon story

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

twitter.com/Sexnotgender_/status/1357034763039686662

If the TWAW movement gains any legs and men can simply self identify as women without any medical certs etc, then this implies that a woman who requests same sex care could be assigned a pre op trans women who last week was a man named Terry but is this week a “woman” called Maureen. Sounds extreme but this could be reality.

By the way I have a trans relative, male to female, I love her a lot, wonderful person, I’m happy to call her “she” etc but this does not change the fundamental facts that she was born male. Realistically my relative if she were a nurse could be offered to the previous poster who requested same sex care as my relative is now theoretically a “woman”. And you’d probably be considered a bigot or transphobic if you complained.

I love her a lot, wonderful person, I’m happy to call her “she” etc but this does not change the fundamental facts that she was born male.

This is the nub of it. If you have asked for a female hcp there is a reason.

If a male person, at whatever stage of transition, arrives as your female hcp, however lovely they are, what is happening now is that you as the patient are under pressure to abandon your reason and to put demonstrating care and respect for the male person's self identity ahead of your own needs and feelings. In a situation where the hcp is now not demonstrating care and respect to you.

It has to be recognised: to some people sex matters, it cannot be disappeared at will, and to demand that a vulnerable female, quite possibly afraid, unwell, in pain, surrenders their own needs to demonstrate taking care of a male person who is demonstrating that they feel more important than the female person's needs, feelings, beliefs.....?

How is this not abusive and sex based discrimination? Male people are not intrinsically more important than female people, and female people do not have a sex based birth duty to always self sacrifice and take care of males. The whole point of this ideology is supposed to be that binary sex doesn't exist, and yet it's all rooted in this incredibly sexist, very binary sex class based thinking!

@SparklyShoesandTutus

It's a tiny number when you look at the number of the register 0.6%. On the whole there is a policy across the NHS that individuals can request sam see staff for intimate procedures and efforts are made to facilitate this. However it isn't always possible and where it isn't the option of a chaperone is usually offered. Often an unqualified individual that wouldn't be qualified to provide the procedure needed. When looking at childbirth it has been the case for most of history the midwives are female and doctors are male so both have are are involved in intimate procedures.

It is imperative that choice is maintained for women. If a woman requests a female hcp and is told there isn’t one available so she can either have a male with a chaperone or rebook the appointment for when a female is available - that is her choice. If she requests a female hcp and a non female person turns up presenting themselves as female the patient has had her choice removed. She can’t ask to rebook when a female is available because the hospital are presenting that hcp AS female. So she has to accept treatment by a male bodied person or nothing.

I mentioned earlier about Clare Dimeyon’s situation where she asked for a female hcp and her letter was circulated between departments as an example of unacceptable transphobic bigotry.

That just blows my mind. A healthcare setting taking a patient about to go through an unpleasant procedure (as well the fact that she was dealing with the stress and worry of a serious health issue) and doing that to them. Every person complicit in that action should have been disciplined for gross misconduct.

They are not the ‘caring profession!’

One thing I have noticed is that the mtf trans people tend to gravitate towards positions of power and influence that are either reserved for or direct affect women.

A number of influential Women’s Officer positions, a position on the policy advisory board for the Royal Obs/Gyn society (what on earth that person who has zero experience of living in a female body could contribute I have no idea) , co-chair of Women fit the Green Party, manager of a large women’s rape shelter in Scotland etc etc.

Actual women in positions so far removed from their area of expertise would be suffering a bad case of imposter syndrome. These people do not - I wonder why?

If the TWAW movement gains any legs and men can simply self identify as women without any medical certs etc, then this implies that a woman who requests same sex care could be assigned a pre op trans women who last week was a man named Terry but is this week a “woman” called Maureen. Sounds extreme but this could be reality.

Sadly chuckle this has got legs and it’s up and running. Last year I read a terrible account of an elderly lady being shouted at by her mtf hcp for ‘misgendering’.

Many hospitals have a policy where the wishes of a transgender person are explicitly prioritised over those of other patients (single sex wards etc) - even if those patients only identify as female part time!! Breaches of the single sex accommodation policy are strictly monitored EXCEPT where that breach is caused by placing a male bodied transgender person a a female ward. Staff are threatened with prosecution for discussing it.

We need to push back urgently before we pass the point of no return.

It has to be asked: what is the subjective difference for the female person who has requested a female hcp, between a man arriving to give health care and a transwoman arriving to give healthcare?

Why is the one not ok and the other ok, what is the difference in experience for the female patient that makes this ok?

Many activists would now try to convince you that you wouldn't know the transwoman was male, however this is by activism's own teaching extremely transphobic, as transwomen are not all fully transitioned and entirely female presenting, and 'passing' is not by any means a fair and kind requirement. The female patient has not requested someone with a feminine appearance: they are likely to be perfectly happy with an androgynous or masculine presenting female hcp.

And this described situation of 'you wouldn't be able to tell' comes again back to disrespect on the part of the male person, who has heard and understood the female person's request and boundary, and has disregarded it on the grounds that they will be able to deceive them.

The most likely outcome is that the female will certainly be able to tell, and will then be in the situation of being under pressure to go through with something they have not consented to, out of fear of what will happen if they say no to the male person. And let's take this down to the blunt truth of it, because dressing this up nicely does not help females: this is pressuring a female person to allow a male person to have access to and touch her body against her stated boundaries and consent, having placed her in a situation where she may now be afraid to say no, and experience anger and pressure to change her mind or be refused the treatment unless she accepts.

How are we living in a country where this is even being discussed as possible?

The twaw movement have had legs for decades.

this is pressuring a female person to allow a male person to have access to and touch her body against her stated boundaries and consent, having placed her in a situation where she may now be afraid to say no, and experience anger and pressure to change her mind or be refused the treatment unless she accepts.

How are we living in a country where this is even being discussed as possible?

This.

And all to validate men.

Oh and activists will also often follow this up with "Oh so if a transman comes in to do this intimate procedure you want a female hcp for, and has a beard and tattoos and looks fully male presenting, is that ok?"

At which point please note:

• The goal is still to break down female boundaries and prevent female people being allowed to say no to male people

• why would a transman who knows their female patient has asked for a female person want to walk in and pressure and upset this female further? How exactly as a hcp is this providing useful care?

• the main aim of this is visualising punishing the female for daring to say no to a male person. It's essentially 'if you won't let a transwoman do it because you say they're male, then let's inflict someone male looking on you to teach you the lesson that you don't get to tell trans people you have bodily autonomy, that you are believe in sex, and have needs that gender identity denies'.

It's hardly patient centred or kind, is it? Not exactly intersectional transactivism: intersectionality really ought to be recognising that females have different identities and experiences and needs, and diversity and inclusion should be about meeting all needs. Not stamping on the inconvenient female people until they give in, surrender their sex based needs and obey your beliefs and cultures. That's not intersectionality, that's nearer to imperialism and gynephobia.

I’ve been thinking about male hcp.

There are many incidences I have been entirely comfortable with them. A particularly found memory is the very lovely anaesthesiologist who not only stood outside my room and asked my consent to enter before coming in when I was in labour, but also asked my consent repeatedly, unprompted, every time he needed to touch me, despite the fact I had to consent to the epidural procedure before he stared. He was also hugely sympathetic to my needle phobia and encouraged me to use gas and air while he placed the epi so I wouldn’t feel any of it. It was a stark contrast to the female midwife who put her hands on my stomach repeatedly without ever asking, and who acted like her explaining what she needed me to do for internals etc meant I had consented when she never asked for my consent ever.

I also am unusual for a woman abuse survivor in that I sought out a male trauma therapist. While my rapists were all male of course my mother was the one knowingly facilitating it, gas lighting me over it, and I needed to avoid seeing a woman because of the dynamic I had with her.

When I have a choice in the matter I’m good with male hcp on my terms.

When I went for covid vaccine there were tones of women around. Lots of open little booths. There would have been no need at all for me to fear if a man did it. There would have been no loss of privacy or dignity if a man did it. But I got to the front of the cue and was near a panic attack because of my needle phobia and when the woman hcp allocating which booth ask if I was ok I said I was phobic and wanted a woman to do it. There were loads of women doing the injections so it was no issue. It wouldn’t have mattered to me if a man was the hcp sitting in the booth taking the info, but equally a woman doing that while a man did the injection wouldn’t have changed my panic. The panic was strictly about the needle, yet I knew a woman doing it was more comfortable for me than a man, the same way when I get bp tested its always fine if a woman does it and goes through the roof when a man does, even if a woman is in the room at the time or if it’s one of the male gps who I am especially comfortable with. It’s just an innate bodily reaction to a man doing these things. And that remains the same if the man presents as a woman.

There would have been no safety, privacy or dignity reasons for me to have a woman doing my COVID vaccs, it was simply my comfort that meant I wanted it that way.

But why would women’s comfort not be a reason to do this wherever can be reasonably done? When did we become so obsolete?

It's essentially 'if you won't let a transwoman do it because you say they're male, then let's inflict someone male looking on you to teach you the lesson that you don't get to tell trans people you have bodily autonomy, that you are believe in sex, and have needs that gender identity denies'.

Yep.

We're not taking no for an answer. We are just going to keep giving you alternatives until we find one you cant wriggle out of.

Passing transwomen, transmen, predatory lesbians, genital inspections, genital obsessions...be kind.

Muslim here. Yes, if possible l would request a female doctor for religious reasons but it's also cultural. I've avoided as much as possible showing myself to any man. Now l'm married, its even more important to me.

If l requested a female doctor but one wasn't available then of course a male one would be fine as its about

Its more awkward for me if the doctor is from the same ethnic/ racial background as me. If its a white doctor then l'm usually less embarrassed.

@IWillSqueakAgain

The twaw movement have had legs for decades.

Yes, I'm amazed by the number of women on threads like this who are oblivious to how far things have gone. I guess they've had their fingers in their ears and have been shouting 'transphobe', when the rest of us have tried to warn them?

Something I have only really understood as I have got older is how dangerous people who don't want to hear/accept bad news are. They selfishly prioritise their desire not to feel uncomfortable over everyone else's safety and welfare.

Yep miss. I realised what was going on when I had my girls more than a decade ago. I thought I was very late to the party then. Really don’t understand how others are still blind to this now.

@MissKhan1990

Muslim here. Yes, if possible l would request a female doctor for religious reasons but it's also cultural. I've avoided as much as possible showing myself to any man. Now l'm married, its even more important to me.

If l requested a female doctor but one wasn't available then of course a male one would be fine as its about

Its more awkward for me if the doctor is from the same ethnic/ racial background as me. If its a white doctor then l'm usually less embarrassed.

You may have heard about the situation with a male GP in London who originated from Sri Lanka (I think).

He had some female patients of a similar ethnic /religious background but they didn’t let him do any intimate procedures.

This doctor took some time off to transition and returned to work without much fanfare - from their account it seemed that a number of the female patients assumed the ‘new’ GP was in fact the transitioned GPs wife. Those patients were then happy to have intimate procedures carried out by this GP (who had hormone treatment and hair removal but was otherwise still fully intact) and the GP felt happily validated by that.

I’m wondering from a cultural point of view what impact that this level of deception would have had on the female patients and their willingness to trust doctors in the future. This GP was listed on the practice website as a female and volunteered no information to allow women to make an informed choice about who treated them. I think the BMA support GPs being able to lie to their patients about their sex which I find astonishing.

This GP was celebrated in the Guardian as a wonderful trans success story.

Not exactly intersectional transactivism: intersectionality really ought to be recognising that females have different identities and experiences and needs, and diversity and inclusion should be about meeting all needs. Not stamping on the inconvenient female people until they give in, surrender their sex based needs and obey your beliefs and cultures. That's not intersectionality, that's nearer to imperialism and gynephobia.

Yes, this exactly. Let's start pushing back to naive virtue signallers who mean well that ignoring or disregarding the shared needs of the class of humans who are female is not "intersectional" in any sense.

Actually, I think we also need to say loud and clear that if there is such a thing as a female penis then there is also such a thing as female rape. And that female rape is just as bad and unacceptable as male rape.

I disagree. There is no such thing as a "female penis", even in a hypothetical sense. If you accept that women have penises, you accept that there is no difference between male and female.

When looking at childbirth it has been the case for most of history the midwives are female and doctors are male so both have are are involved in intimate procedures.

And yet most hospitals in the UK offer midwife led units for uncomplicated births where the woman doesn't want an epidural. Somebody on this thread already posted about the study that showed that labour can slow down drastically when a woman feels unsafe. A male HCP or even a female doctor (as opposed to midwife) walking into the room of a labouring woman can cause this.

My first labour I turned up at the hospital to be told it was full. The labour ground to a halt there and then, because obviously I no longer felt safe. My second I was on the labour ward rather than the midwife unit, due to a technicality. But in actual fact I only saw midwives throughout the whole procedure. I feel like all the amazing (female) midwives I've come across know that women are female mammals and need to feel safe in order to labour. Curious that their professional organisation purports not to.

They should absolutely have the right to ask the same sex care, however personally it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I am interested in the qualifications of the person, not what is between their legs.

When looking at childbirth it has been the case for most of history the midwives are female and doctors are male so both have are are involved in intimate procedures.

Yes, the key word there is 'most of history', because all doctors were male. Irrelevant to what should pertain today.

Women should have the choice. Not everyone is comfortable with men, and for good reason!

Hi the doctor that held me down and raped me had excellent qualifications. 25 years on I don’t want to be in an intimate medical situation, in a room with a closed door, in a vulnerable position with a person with a penis. My feelings are just as valid as anyone else’s. If I was confronted with a male giving me a smear and there was no female present I would have to leave and hope I didn’t have cancer.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/11/meet-the-trans-key-workers-treating-teaching-and-serving-the-uk

Includes the GP referenced above by gardenbird

all the amazing (female) midwives I've come across know that women are female mammals and need to feel safe in order to labour. Curious that their professional organisation purports not to.

Even more curious that an organisation serving only female mammals feels the need to prioritise theoretical male mammals' feelings above every single female that they serve. How does an organisation based on gynecology become gynephobic ffs?

There’s no such thing as female rape either, not in the U.K. Here rape is a crime of forced penile penetration, so is only commuted by men.

Women can commit sexual assualts and these can carry an equal sentence to rape (and in reality often carry longer ones).

I have said on many threads like this that my mother willingly facilitated and watched her boyfriends rape me. That’s a form of sexual abuse. As a victim of a woman sex offender STOP CO-OPTING MY EXPERIENCE TO SHUT DOWN WOMENs VOICES!!!!!

It’s highly fucking offensive and insensitive and calous.

Fuck I misread that, sorry...

I swear every fucking thread like this just now has someone coming along saying women can be abusers too, without any regard for the few of us who have been victims of woman, my back is well and truely up on that one. Wrongly so in this case, I apologise. Fuck my tired brain.