AIBU to think that women should be able to request same-sex provision?

[Glinner]

The tweet below is astonishing for two reasons. First of all, as the poster points out, this is the NURSING AND MIDWIFERY COUNCIL saying that one's sex is 'assigned' at birth. They said this out loud! As part of their evidence to the GRA enquiry!

But aside from that nonsense, what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not? I wonder how many of that number are fully intact males?

You might remember when Clare Dimyon requested a same-sex nurse to attend her during her mammogram, the NHS responded in the most extraordinary way--they took her name off the letter and published it in official literature as an example of a 'bigoted' request.

One thing for which we should be grateful to Eddie Izzard: Now we are under no doubt that in many cases 'trans' means, simply, 'crossdresser'. Are these 'trans' nurses, midwives and nursing assistants crossdressers? Are women within their rights to request that crossdressing men not be present during intimate exams and so on? If a woman makes this request, will she be committing a hate crime?

Here's the Clare Dimyon story

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

twitter.com/Sexnotgender_/status/1357034763039686662

This isn’t meant to be goady, I’m genuinely curious - Is it the chromosomes that matter or whether they have a penis or not?

For me i would have a problem with any male person. And I would need it to be explained that the person was female if I had requested a female and a person arrived who appeared male. Then I would be ok. But other women draw the line differently.

Grr, even the word 'bashful' gets my bloody up. The Grauniad and its equally ignorant readers can fuck the fuck off with that noise.

What I thought too!

The problem is as others have said that to object to a transwoman is seen as bigotry. It's also easier for some than others to say 'transwomen are women.'

To me they aren't. They are transwomen - people who chose to live as women, who feel on some level they are women, but are to me male.

I will never not see that. I will never look at a transwoman and believe they are a woman in the same way I am. In a healthcare setting I would not be able to behave as if I was being treated by a female. I am not 100% opposed to intimate care from men but in a non emergency setting when it's just me and the HCP in a room then yes, that person needs to female, to avoid the extra level of anxiety and fear that comes with a male HCP, however good they are.

I cannot help my physical responses and don't want to suppress them as they are my protection and I rely on them and have from a young age.

It's a big - for me impossible - thing to ask, that people believe such a fundamental transformation from male to female can simply occur.

We know that male HCPs assault vulnerable women. Sometimes they get caught but mostly they are protected, though that is changing.

Therefore I would never accept care from a transwoman if I could get up and walk out, and that is not transphobic.

Re psychiatric wards, there was recently a webinar about ensuring sexual safety on mental health wards. One of the panel was an MTF nurse who was placed on a women's locked mental health ward.

This person in later conversations appeared to have little regard for the rights or feelings of the female patients who had no choice in the matter. Neither did any of the women on the webinar, and they all complained about the "transphobia" of people daring to speak up for these vulnerable women.

I’m sorry but that statement is exactly what women experience in professions every day. Mechanics, plumbers, electricians.... the list for women meeting this reaction is far longer. And a female plumber isn’t wanting to check your pipes

And, ironically, medicine!

I am not 100% opposed to intimate care from men but in a non emergency setting when it's just me and the HCP in a room then yes, that person needs to female, to avoid the extra level of anxiety and fear that comes with a male HCP, however good they are

And most decent male hcps would offer or want a chaperone when treating a woman to ensure that everything is obviously ‘above board’ and to protect themselves from any possibility, however rare, of false accusations. The report by Nursing and Midwifery union said that male hcps are significantly more likely to be involved in sexual assault allegations. Sadly the majority of these will be guilty.

Any male (however they identify) too keen on being alone to do an intimate examination on a woman should be treated with caution.

This isn’t meant to be goady, I’m genuinely curious - Is it the chromosomes that matter or whether they have a penis or not?

For me i would have a problem with any male person. And I would need it to be explained that the person was female if I had requested a female and a person arrived who appeared male. Then I would be ok. But other women draw the line differently.

So as long as they have the XX chromosomes then they are ok?

So if a man walked in, deep voice, facial hair, male physique and had a penis, you would be happy having him there as long as you understood he had XX female chromosomes?

So what is it that about the chromosomes that make someone ‘ok’ even if everything else about them is male?

I just find the whole concept really interesting.

I admit that if I were to have a smear for example and it was performed by a biological male who presented as a male I would feel a bit uncomfortable but I don’t really understand why? Even if there was a female chaperone there (say a practice nurse) so I knew the male doctor wasn’t going to harm me, I would still feel a bit uncomfortable. But as a previous poster said, they’re just genitals to medical staff and male professionals have probably seen 100’s of vaginas in their time depending on their career.

Someone has said something along the lines of they can’t believe male midwives are allowed.....but why is it ok for male obstetricians then? Or should that be a female only professional too? No males should be allowed to enter that field?

I had no idea that mammographers weren’t allowed to be males as another poster said?! Does that mean male GPs aren’t allowed to perform a breast examination if a woman presents with concerns about a lump she’s found?

The whole thing is so complex.

I 100% agree that women should have the freedom of choice to select personal cares, examinations and treatments etc from female staff - absolutely - but it’s such a complicated matter.

As I said though - I fully support a woman’s right to choose and she should be allowed the freedom to make that choice.

I want to quote @yetmorenamechanging from 08:18 for some reason I can’t.

The points are clearly made in that post.

I do question the motives of men who decide to be midwives, obstetricians and gynaecologists.

Yes they must know that a not insignificant number of women will be distressed when they walk into the room or their homes and that women will be inhibited in sharing information.

Doesn’t it display a degree of arrogance or lack of empathy in those men?

They certainly have a degree of access to women’s bodies which some other men might find enviable.

It must bolster their self esteem when women are amazed at how kind, gentle and lovely they are.

Does anyone doubt that there are enough “lovely” and highly skilled women who work in these professions and the possibility that we don’t need any new men joining these professions, we have enough capable and caring women.

It is interesting how when a profession is made up primarily of women the few men will rise to the highest paid posts and take charge in roles where they get to dictate policy.

When a man walks into a room of women there is an immediate change of atmosphere which is palpable. We are so socialised to placate and please, to defer to and respect male authority. Many women will immediately and unconsciously pay attention to the man and his needs be it out of primal fear or that socialisation to serve him.

In women’s health care it is women who should be centred. We could ask for this if we wanted it. Yes we should have the right to request a same sex health care professional but in maternity and gynaecology why should we have to? Imagine how much confidence it would give to women and girls to know that they wouldn’t be confronted with having to make that request.

Thank you @JoodyBlue! I have bookmarked the video to watch later.

I'm so shocked at that article Ereshkigalangcleg!

There are so many examples of why he shouldn't be a midwife- laughing at the woman who wanted to get her stomach back being the least of them.

I agree men should have the choice of every area of medical specialism just as women should. However some situations should not arise. Male midwives as part of a team, with women around and other people on the ward- not a problem. Women should still be able to specify female care without prejudice. Men in women's homes, alone- absolutely not.

I was accidentally booked in to see a male gp for my smear. I hadn't thought to specify because it had always been a nurse before. It didn't occur to me even in passing that a man would be doing my smear. And I didn't refuse or rebook.

It sickens me, actually, that these battles are still ongoing.
Men should be able to request care from a male.
If he is treated by a female HCP, he may feel a bit embarrassed or uncomfortable (although he's probably socialised to accept care from women and may well find it more comfortable than from a man). However, he also knows that very very few sex offenders are women. Odds suggest he's absolutely safe.

Women don't have that same security!

I had a male midwife at one point, I was asked if I minded, which I didn't. He was excellent. It comes down to whether we think it's ok to insist on the sex/gender of medical practitioners, and in what circumstances? Is it just for a predefined list of procedures? Does this mean men can refuse a female gp for sensitive consultations?

I personally think medical professionals should be allocated on experience for the procedure required not their chromosomes, subsequent gender identity or choice of gendered clothing. My OB/GYN was male and the most experienced consultant in south London at the time, he treated my grandmother before me and remembered me years later - rejecting him for his registrar would have been rather foolish in my opinion!

There are not many male midwives, even fewer trans ones, so generally they can accommodate requests but should we have the right to demand same sex, no not in my opinion because it could have negative consequences to others

So women should go without care then, mootymoo?

If women can't request female carers, and can't receive care from men, then they should do without?

Good to know your priorities, there.

Health care isn't a luxury. I am happy to miss out on a hair cut because only men are available. I will paint my house myself if I don't want to be alone with a male decorator and no women are available. Health care? Nope. Not gonna work!

which is fine mooty - you made the choice you wanted but you dont have the right to choose on behalf of other women who would want a woman

It's absolutely wonderful that you had the best consultant in south london mootymoo, and I'm thrilled for you, but it's not relevant to this argument.

Some women only want same sex healthcare, and they have the right to it.

I don't care what gender the nurse is.
Just as long as her sex is female.

I'm so shocked at that article Ereshkigalangcleg!

There are so many examples of why he shouldn't be a midwife- laughing at the woman who wanted to get her stomach back being the least of them.

The awful fawning comments and the dismissive and patronising attitude towards the woman who said she didn't want a male HCP, and demanding to know what it was based on, were shocking too.

Conversations such as this always demonstrate: some women are fine with opposite sex care, and to other women it matters very much. Therefore it should obviously remain a matter of choice.

How a male person feels about it isn't really relevant. It cannot acceptable or appropriate to expect someone else to provide you with their body against their consent because it is upsetting to you if they say no.

Health care outcomes improve when people have confidence in those delivering it.

If women are scared ........

Does this mean men can refuse a female gp for sensitive consultations?

Why wouldn't they be able to do just that? Sure, why not? My son specifies a male GP for sensitive consultations. My husband wanted only men present for his vasectomy.

I think men should be able to, too.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think men should be able to, too.

Of course. I don’t think any of us have said otherwise.

yetmorenamechanging
Why should a man have a right to do a job that will cause some of the client base - exclusively women - discomfort? It's not like he can switch to specialising on men. It's totally guaranteed that there will be some women throughout his career who he will make very uncomfortable and they won't be able to say, due to past sexual trauma. This is guaranteed.
So, why does he have a right to enter that profession?

I think that might not be the right question; I would be inclined to ask "Why does he have the desire to enter that profession?" Knowing that he is inevitably going to cause hurt and trauma to at least some people, possibly on every day of his professional life, why does he want to do that?

My understanding of medics is that they should be motivated by a desire to help people, not to harm them. They may not be able to help in all cases (and that may lead them eventually to compassion fatigue) but surely helping should be the basic desire?

ListeningQuietly
Health care outcomes improve when people have confidence in those delivering it.
If women are scared ........

Research carried out as long ago as the 1970s definitely indicated that the more women are frightened during labour, the more their blood concentrates involuntarily in their limbs for flight-and-fight and is less available in the organs which need blood engorgement to help labour, and therefore the longer their labour is likely to be.

(Michel Odent was eloquent on the subject.)

Does this mean men can refuse a female gp for sensitive consultations?

Of course. And it's interesting how male's right to have his wants/needs accommodated is rarely in question, which is perhaps the reason why this question comes up far less frequently.

Equal ruling is fair, although it should be taken into account that the basis on which these requests are made are entirely different depending on the sex of the patient. To men, it amounts to HC provision on the basis on which he feels most comfortable. This is perfectly fine. For women it boils down to the risk-assessments we have to make every single day of our lives in relation to possible assault from males.

In this scenario men's comfort isn't in conflict with women's safety in the last. When the reverse is true, which unfortunately happens all too often, it's always the former (secondary) consideration which takes precedence over the latter.

in the 'least'. Small screens!

Some men prefer care from a female person for some things. A male friend of mine once described his anxiety when having booked a massage, a man arrived to do it. It was his first experience of feeling sexually vulnerable and he did not enjoy it. What matters is choice, and that people should not be expected to justify it.

It should be the case too that anyone in the form of their job offering such care has their client or patient's need first in mind and therefore would be unwilling to insist on doing anything that made their patient uncomfortable, afraid or unwilling to accept care or treatment - there was a very good article recently from a transman who protected their client and their client's need when they saw their client's distress, which included standing up to a manager. It's alarming that there seem to be people in such roles who would indeed press their personal feelings and needs above the responsibilities of their role and ability to respect and empathise with a client or patient. Which would make it essential that anyone can state a preference at any time as part of consent, and not be made to disclose, argue or endure persuasion or criticism for this. It also makes it essential that there is a separation in law between gender and sex, with sex based choice protected where sex matters to that person.