Page 11 | AIBU to think that women should be able to request same-sex provision?

Terriblewithmoney · 04/02/2021 16:53

@ArabellaScott

Also just want to note that there are currently HCPs identifying as 'female' who were born male. In case anyone thinks this is just hypothetical. One GP practises in London and noted in an interview how women patients would allow more intimate procedures than when said GP identified as a male.

'Noted' is a nice word for the barely concealed relish with which this person talked about this.

not envy

Impatiens · 04/02/2021 17:16

@katnyps

Fair question! To be fair to MN I think some have been taken down but a couple of comments that stand out to me (I only made it up to page 4 rechecking) One post saying the scenario of being seen by a trans women would be "too sinister" and another stating "What I do think is incredibly U however, is health care proffessionals lying about their sex, in order to perform intimate care on a woman.the alarm bells would be deafening me if that ever happened to me. I’d break the land speed record getting out of there. I couldn’t think of anything more overtly dodgy"

Ok, other posters have answered this while I was away but I partly agree with you, the 'tone' isn't great and could be taken as 'transphobic'.

But there is an issue here that specifically relates to transwomen and to the the way the NHS implements their guidelines - that somehow it's unreasonable or phobic of Women not to accept a transwoman as being just like any other woman when we know they're not. It really concerns me.

redpencil77 · 04/02/2021 17:17

[quote Glinner]The tweet below is astonishing for two reasons. First of all, as the poster points out, this is the NURSING AND MIDWIFERY COUNCIL saying that one's sex is 'assigned' at birth. They said this out loud! As part of their evidence to the GRA enquiry!

But aside from that nonsense, what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not? I wonder how many of that number are fully intact males?

You might remember when Clare Dimyon requested a same-sex nurse to attend her during her mammogram, the NHS responded in the most extraordinary way--they took her name off the letter and published it in official literature as an example of a 'bigoted' request.

One thing for which we should be grateful to Eddie Izzard: Now we are under no doubt that in many cases 'trans' means, simply, 'crossdresser'. Are these 'trans' nurses, midwives and nursing assistants crossdressers? Are women within their rights to request that crossdressing men not be present during intimate exams and so on? If a woman makes this request, will she be committing a hate crime?

Here's the Clare Dimyon story

glinner.co.uk/interview-with-clare-dimyon-mbe/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

twitter.com/Sexnotgender_/status/1357034763039686662[/quote]
Not unreasonable AT ALL!

Wonder if her permission was sought for the letter - how does it stand with GDPR? I would be going down the legal route if I were Claire

redpencil77 · 04/02/2021 17:19

@JKRisagryff

I don’t know how anyone can say otherwise.

Which is it to be, should a woman who requests a female medic be denied care? Or should she be forced into receiving care from a male-bodied person? This is basically what it comes down to when you’re removing the right to same-sex provision and calling anyone uncomfortable with it bigots. They probably have very good reasons for being distrustful/wary around males.

It would be very nice to be able to say let’s all be kind and get along and sweep all the pressing issues under the rug for now. These are the questions we need straight answers to. No one seems to want to answer these questions as they want to stay woke without having to say out loud, ‘We don’t care about re-traumatising victims of abuse. We don’t care what a woman’s boundaries are. We want women who feel uncomfortable/scared/suspicious around males to put their feelings aside. Males should be allowed to do intimate examinations on uncomfortable/scared/suspicious females to help them feel validated’

And fpr what? Woke virtue signalling

katnyps · 04/02/2021 17:23

@Impatiens
I think we're on the same page? I'd like to have this discussion without the transphobic tone of some of the more extreme posts - as I think that undermines what is an important topic. It is an anonymous forum though so I should know what to expect

redpencil77 · 04/02/2021 17:24

@GaraMedouar

I agree with Hannah1329’s last paragraph.

First I would choose a female, 2nd a male who knows they’re a male and thirdly a male who presents as a woman. Obviously if I was in a life and death situation beggars can’t be choosers. But let’s say I’m going for a smear - then I’d have the female nurse do it, may say yes to the male nurse if for example the female nurse was off sick so he was a stand in and asked if it was ok, if I thought oh what the hell i don’t want to have to rebook again and have the faff, but to be presented with a male nurse where you are supposed to pretend they’re female , and go along with the pretence and charade and not mention the elephant in the room , to validate them, nope from me. I would refuse .

For my kids’ births I only had female midwives. But one birth in hospital I was asked if a male junior doctor could come in at the end , and I was honestly quite happy with that, not a problem.
I knew he was training and needed experience (he was only observing).

I wouldnt go for the smear and make sure they knew why

redpencil77 · 04/02/2021 17:27

You ought to say it, you are the victim

Quaagars · 04/02/2021 17:28

And I notice another one from Quagaars is a straw man ('you don't want trans women near you'). Honestly. hmm

Most some of us don't think TWAW. Get over it.

You kind of contradict yourself there.
face at me for saying you (general you) don''t want trans women near you, it's apparently a straw man?
Then in the next breath say Most of us don't think trans women are women. Get over it.
Not so much of a straw man then, is it? As you're basically agreeing with what I said, seeing as they're apparently not women, even if you do hide the word most behind the strike out feature.

Impatiens · 04/02/2021 17:30

Yes anything that touches on the trans issue automatically becomes very inflammatory @katnyps. I agree, it would be great if everyone could be calmly reasonable about it but we're a long way past that.

The tone of some posts may sound objectionable but it's far far less insulting to me than the way the NHS, Midwifery Council quoted by the OP, and so many other organisations have just steamrollered their 'guidance' in without consultation, seemingly without any care for the safety, dignity, beliefs of the Women who'll be directly affected.

redpencil77 · 04/02/2021 17:31

@YouJustDoYou

After a horrible, traumatic experience at the hands of a male doctor and 5 male students during a vaginal exam when I was a teenager, I have always since then requested female nurses or doctors where possible. It's never been an issue at all........but now I'm wondering, would it be these days? :(

Do it

Impatiens · 04/02/2021 17:33

but to be presented with a male nurse where you are supposed to pretend they’re female , and go along with the pretence and charade and not mention the elephant in the room , to validate them, nope from me. I would refuse.

Exactly. It's deception, and that's not right.

PurBal · 04/02/2021 17:33

I actually don't mind male care despite the fact I was sexually assaulted by a male GP. Totally up to the individual.

Terriblewithmoney · 04/02/2021 17:34

@Quaagars

And I notice another one from Quagaars is a straw man ('you don't want trans women near you'). Honestly. hmm

Most some of us don't think TWAW. Get over it.

You kind of contradict yourself there.
face at me for saying you (general you) don''t want trans women near you, it's apparently a straw man?
Then in the next breath say Most of us don't think trans women are women. Get over it.
Not so much of a straw man then, is it? As you're basically agreeing with what I said, seeing as they're apparently not women, even if you do hide the word most behind the strike out feature.

No. I am fine with transwomen near me.

I do not believe they are women.

THOSE. ARE. DIFFERENT. THINGS.

Impatiens · 04/02/2021 17:42

seeing as they're apparently not women

There's no 'apparently' about it. Stop derailing the thread, this is a crucially important discussion.

Datun · 04/02/2021 17:45

@katnyps

Fair question! To be fair to MN I think some have been taken down but a couple of comments that stand out to me (I only made it up to page 4 rechecking) One post saying the scenario of being seen by a trans women would be "too sinister" and another stating "What I do think is incredibly U however, is health care proffessionals lying about their sex, in order to perform intimate care on a woman.the alarm bells would be deafening me if that ever happened to me. I’d break the land speed record getting out of there. I couldn’t think of anything more overtly dodgy"

You might want to take that up with Stonewall, in that case. They have included transvestism and cross dressing in the cohort of transwomen. An awful lot of these problems stem from that.

They have said it's perfectly legitimate to include sexually motivated male individuals in this cohort.

It's not fair to pretend they haven't, nor expect women to not acknowledge that.

Skysblue · 04/02/2021 17:56

I learned recently (support group) that the majority of women suffering a disease who have a certain medical treatment will not discuss the sexual side effects of that treatment with male doctors/nurses, only with female staff. Everyone in the support group said they felt too embarrassed and uncomfortable raising their sexual problems with men. Everyone in the group who’d had that specific treatment was experiencing sexual problems as a side effect. The few lucky enough to see a female doctor had reported the side effects and were getting treatment adjustments, but the majority hadn’t reported the issue to their medical provider because of a lack of a female practitioner.

I mention this because there are women right now not reporting significant medical side effects to their medical providers because they are being seen by men. Irrespective of any trans/gender stuff, the people saying ‘what’s the problem with male doctors’ are very naive.

Apologies for the lack of detail am trying to stay anonymous 😬

LangClegsInSpace · 04/02/2021 18:20

@LexxaM

Indeed so but the issue of competing rights is important. The right of males to identify as women v the rights of other groups who don’t wish to have males attend to them. The Equality Act protects sex, gender reassignment, religious views. Which is most important when they conflict? How to solve this problem?

You use the occupational requirement general exception in Schedule 9, Part 1.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/9/part/1/crossheading/general

Explanatory notes here:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1/1

LangClegsInSpace · 04/02/2021 18:28

what stood out for me was the number of nurses, midwives and nursing associates whose 'gender identity' does not match their sex. 4,484! That seems like a high number, does it not?

I don't think it's that high a number. The text in the image says it's 0.6%. I seem to remember the BBC proudly announcing that 3% of their workforce was trans. Now that's high and goes some way to explaining a few things IMO.

YANBU about any of the rest of it.

YouSetTheTone · 04/02/2021 18:34

I have a problem with being forced to accept intimate/ Medical care from an individual who insists their rights trump mine.
I’m not saying this individual doesn’t have a right to work in that role but I am saying that if I am uncomfortable with them performing that role on me then I’m entitled to say so without being called a bigot or to accept their care or nothing.

If I walk into a room with a medical professional I want our rights to be equal. I want to be able to say I respect you as a person but seeing as sex is a protected characteristic I’d like to request that I have a professional of the same sex as me if I deem it necessary.
If that person insisted on making me go against this wish because it would hurt their feelings I want to know why their feelings are more important than mine in this situation. And I want my feelings to be protected legally.

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 04/02/2021 18:39

@WendyTestaburger

Just noticing the ratio is hovering around 11% whilst the number of votes goes steadily up. So while that's still a small percentage it reflects an ever growing number of voters who believe women have no right to request a female HCP and yet somehow cannot find the words to express why, on this anonymous forum.

It's that #nodebate thing. I'd not heard of it until I came to Mumsnet.

Thewithesarehere · 04/02/2021 18:44

@ArabellaScott

I also believe that trans women are women

Thats fine, I don't believe it, though. You are welcome to belief in any faith, I am also welcome to not believe in it.

Aptly put.

Quaagars · 04/02/2021 18:48

So while that's still a small percentage it reflects an ever growing number of voters who believe women have no right to request a female HCP and yet somehow cannot find the words to express why, on this anonymous forum.

Or more likely and has been said on the thread that of course people don't have problems with women being able to request other women, it's the way it's been worded to confuscate the issue that it's really about trans people.
So there'll be some voting YABU for this.
Not because they don't think women should have a choice, that they're not comfortable with the transphobic issue that underlies reasonable concerns.

IWillSqueakAgain · 04/02/2021 18:53

Please stop using the term trans issue.

This isn’t a trans issue it’s a women’s rights one. It always has been always will be. Even if they make self id law it will still be an issue relating to those of us who were born female exclusively (we just won’t be free to say that...)

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 04/02/2021 18:57

I don’t think it necessarily is about trans people and I am actually quite offended if we cannot discuss this.

I was visited in my home when I was alone with my baby by a male midwife. Not trans, a male presenting male.

I felt unable to ask him to check my stitches (which hurt a lot), very uncomfortable to discuss it with him. His advice to me for a bad back after labour was to carry down my pram three floors and take a long walk.

I don’t think it was acceptable that I wasn’t even informed that a male midwife would be coming. I would have loved a choice.

I would like to know how many women here who would have let a strange male midwife check their stitches when they were completely alone with him in their homes.

Hospital settings are completely different.

Terriblewithmoney · 04/02/2021 19:00

@CoffeeTeaChocolate