Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

999 replies

Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 10:56

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Fastedbrownie · 01/02/2021 14:00

@Winesalot

Oh, and every gym I've been a member of has a communal changing room.

I think there is a local guide camp site that also has communal changing rooms for different activities.

All those minimising the potential of this question, seem to be rather misinformed about how common they actually are.

Can I just say that I wouldn't have wanted my daughter changing in front of your daughter at camp either, and neither would a single one of the other mums of transkids I know.
Datun · 01/02/2021 14:00

@334bu

They don't care becausecit doesn't suit their agenda
And it would appear they need to be disapproved of or dispensed with on women's behalf, just to stop the staniland question.
PoleToPole · 01/02/2021 14:01

So where would your stepdaughter have changed Fastedbrownie?

Winesalot · 01/02/2021 14:04

Can I just say that I wouldn't have wanted my daughter changing in front of your daughter at camp either, and neither would a single one of the other mums of transkids I know.

You have answered this already Fasted. Thank you. And I appreciate that you have answered it.

Again, this is pointing out that communal changing rooms occur and not just in the schools, leisure centres, pools etc. It was not a statement directed at you at all and I apologise for not making that clear.

gardenbird48 · 01/02/2021 14:04

The EHRC withdrew advice which stated that someone with a Gender Recognition Certificate should always be treated as their aquired gender. This was a mistake which they acknowledged and the guidance was withdrawn. Despite this someone is now attempting to sue them claiming that they somehow need to contact everyone who might have seen the mistaken guidance and tell them they made a mistake. The courts as yet have not accepted the claim - we shall see what they decide. My guess is that it is unlikely that they will take a claim very seriously based on guidance which contained an error and has now been withdrawn simply because they didn't prostrate themselves sufficiently to appease the gender critical movement.

Their current guidance on trans inclusion remains largely the same however, which is that those with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment should be permitted to use spaces inline with their gender unless discrimination serves a proportionate means on meeting a legitimate aim. The Law Society agree, as do the Government, as do almost all lawyers in this field and the courts have backed this interpretation. Of course some people on the internet say they are all wrong because reasons. I know who I'd rather take legal advice from.

jj so when a government funded organisation deliberately issues false advice to many many organisations you don't think they should be made to tell those organisations that they have misadvised?

Anyway, it went further than that and also had an incorrect list of protected characteristics which for an advisory body is a pretty poor show.

The government does agree with us re. single sex spaces. Liz Truss stated it in her speech last September (ish) and the law is very clear - did you read the link I attached? The Law Society and much of the judiciary have been trained by Stonewall and taken false advice from the EHRC so I'm not surprised they agree. What proof do you have that 'most lawyers' agree - have you asked them all or are you just looking at the ones who align with Dentons/Stonewall?

If you didn't get a chance, here are the relevant bits:

Single sex services are permitted where:

only people of that sex require it;

there is joint provision for both sexes but that is not sufficient on its own;

if the service were provided for men and women jointly, it would not be as effective and it is not reasonably practicable to provide separate services for each sex;

they are provided in a hospital or other place where users need special attention (or in parts of such an establishment);

they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa); or

they may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.

In each case, the separate provision has to be objectively justified. (for avoidance of doubt this means each case ie. type of service, not on a per person/service user basis as Stonewall would like us to think)

Specific examples:
These exceptions would allow:

a cervical cancer screening service to be provided to women only, as only women need the service;

a fathers’ support group to be set up by a private nursery as there is insufficient attendance by men at the parents’ group;

a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand;

separate male and female wards to be provided in a hospital;

separate male and female changing rooms to be provided in a department store;

a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business operating in her clients’ homes because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment.

Gender reassignment: paragraph 28
Effect
739.This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified. (see example below)

Example
A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

Someone that has the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment does not automatically obtain the rights and protections of the opposite sex. The comparator for a transwoman is a male who isn't going through transition.

The 5000 GRC holders are treated slightly differently but still don't have full access to single sex female spaces. Ironically, it is many of the GRC holders that are campaigning against self-id because they recognise the risks that will introduce.

Fastedbrownie · 01/02/2021 14:08

@PoleToPole

So where would your stepdaughter have changed Fastedbrownie?
I don't know, I would (and did for school camps) talk to the leader long before that date to figure out the practicalities. The image of a transgirl skipping off to camp without a care in the world or thought about the other girls is not realistic. Like when dealing with any other condition, a lot of thought and planning goes into the journey before it ever starts to ensure maximum inclusiveness with minimal discomfort for all parties.
Whatwouldscullydo · 01/02/2021 14:12

So having discussed at length the practicalities, where did your SD change?

DedlyMedally · 01/02/2021 14:16

@Winesalot

I'm not saying that, just that fetish subs are not banned

So, just SOME of the subs rooted in harming women and girls have been banned.

"consensual rape" fetishes are common amongst women, I'd imagine they're more popular than they are amongst men. I looked at a few of those subreddits and, as far as I can tell, they facilitate connections between members of kink communities (actually meeting and sharing of "erotica"). The women involved presumably do not feel they are being harmed when they consent to these activities. If you can't see the difference between that and what was going on in Gender Critical, I don't know what to tell you.
Winesalot · 01/02/2021 14:18

The image of a transgirl skipping off to camp without a care in the world or thought about the other girls is not realistic.

That maybe, I am sure though there will be young males who are not on medication at all though who may have a different approach. Safeguarding is not there for the thoughtful people.

I think my concern with guides is around the males who are now allowed to become leaders and would have access as 'women leaders' to those areas if the other leaders were accepting of the mantra (and we know there are women who absolutely would allow this). And that if one of these males had a role at that camp, parents were not allowed to be told.

Putting aside the arrangements you made for your child, what is your thoughts on those situations?

jj1968 · 01/02/2021 14:24

@Winesalot

Yeah trans, why don't you just get men to stop raping people. Just ask nicely and male violence will totes disappear. If it was that easy none of this would be such a problem would it?

It would be a start to have transpeople stop threatening women online then wouldn't it. I know you have said you disagree with their behaviour, but what action is being taken to address this by other transpeople?

Particularly when you have prominent activists sexually harassing someone who is asking the question that is the subject of this thread. Their followers just let them do it and watched it happen. And again jj an activist you obviously think is relevant was one of the ringleaders.

Was it sexual harassment when GC activists shouted penis over everything Monroe Bergdof tried to say on the Channel 4 show a couple of years ago? Or when GC activists shove cameras in people's crotches and laugh about the 'bulge'? Did you condemn that?

Helen Staniland spent half her life demanding trans people answer questions about penises on social media, it's unsuprising that some people took the piss out of her for it.

334bu · 01/02/2021 14:27

Still haven't answered her question though?

jj1968 · 01/02/2021 14:31

The government does agree with us re. single sex spaces. Liz Truss stated it in her speech last September (ish) and the law is very clear - did you read the link I attached? The Law Society and much of the judiciary have been trained by Stonewall and taken false advice from the EHRC so I'm not surprised they agree. What proof do you have that 'most lawyers' agree - have you asked them all or are you just looking at the ones who align with Dentons/Stonewall?

Do you realise how bonkers this sounds? As if a rsmall charity could brainwash both the judiciary and the Law Society into not understanding the law. And Truss was prepared to go to court against a gender critical activist who decided the GEO's guidance was unlawful.

Has Karon Monaghan QC, one of the UK's most repsected equalities lawyers who is sympathetic to the GC cause been brainwashed by Stonewall:

If there is a change so that self-identification becomes the route to a GRC [ ... ] you will not need to change the model of the Equality Act. A trans woman with a GRC will still enjoy protection against discrimination because she is a trans woman, and she will enjoy protection as a woman because she has a GRC, but she will still be subject to the exemptions in relation to single-sex services. Whether or not she has a GRC [ ... ] she can still lawfully be excluded from single-sex services such as rape crisis centres and so on, subject to thresholds being reached. It cannot be an arbitrary refusal: “We’re calling this a single-sex space. You can’t come in.” It cannot be that. It has to reach a certain threshold of proportionality and so on.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/1470/1470.pdf

Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/02/2021 14:32

Yeah trans, why don't you just get men to stop raping people. Just ask nicely and male violence will totes disappear. If it was that easy none of this would be such a problem would it?

So your solution is to make female spaces mixed sex which is proven to increase the risks to females?
Male violence also doesn't just totes disappear when they call themselves women either, and as we can't simply ask nicely for penis owners to stop raping their majority female victims, we keep ALL males out.
Instead we get bullshit like "if you are attacked by a man in the toilets just call the police". Why can't transwomen do that in men's toilets?

sanluca · 01/02/2021 14:33

Jj won't because jj wants transwomen to always be seen as women even when it just a man who feels like a woman on alternate days.

Sorry jj, but your comments show your disrespect to women every single time. The glee with which you claim you are right and absolutely no inclination to find some common ground.

Meet me in the middle said the unjust man

Datun · 01/02/2021 14:37

@334bu

Still haven't answered her question though?
Funny that.
jj1968 · 01/02/2021 14:39

@334bu

Still haven't answered her question though?
Okay I'll answer. No. There you go. And I don't believe it happens.

So now will you answer mine. Do you have any examples of a teenage girl reporting being forced to share a space with someone with an exposed penis?

334bu · 01/02/2021 14:40

So jj1968 do you believe that woman have no right to exclude any male who identifies as female from an area where they are vulnerable?
So a female prisoner could be forced to be stripsearched by a male, a rape victim could not refuse to be examined by a male, a female child could be supervised in a shower by a male PE teacher as long as these males said they were female. Do you really think that this is right???

jj1968 · 01/02/2021 14:43

@334bu

So jj1968 do you believe that woman have no right to exclude any male who identifies as female from an area where they are vulnerable? So a female prisoner could be forced to be stripsearched by a male, a rape victim could not refuse to be examined by a male, a female child could be supervised in a shower by a male PE teacher as long as these males said they were female. Do you really think that this is right???
I think discrimination is acceptable on a case by case basis if it can be shown to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim as the Equalities Act says.
334bu · 01/02/2021 14:43

So now will you answer mine. Do you have any examples of a teenage girl reporting being forced to share a space with someone with an exposed penis?

Read upthread of US school where swim team forced to change in cupboard because transwomen was using the female changing room.

Winesalot · 01/02/2021 14:44

Or when GC activists shove cameras in people's crotches and laugh about the 'bulge'? Did you condemn that?

Who the fuck did that? If I had known about it, of course I would condemn this.

And also I don't agree with yelling Penis at Bergdorf however much I disagree with what Bergdorf says.

lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2021 14:46

Do you have any examples of a teenage girl reporting being forced to share a space with someone with an exposed penis?

Well I don't know if she exposed her penis, probably because of the victims right to privacy, but the girls who were assaulted by Katie Dolatowski were sexually assaulted by a woman with a penis in a safe space.

You are deliberately missing the point though.

We don't need to give specific examples to say that the way in which the wind is blowing will result in this being a risk.

Why should women and girls have to accept this safeguarding risk?

Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 14:46

In my local pool there is clear signage stating men and another saying men with their children in a separate cubicle from the main changing area. There are also other cubicles within the area. The female changing areas are the same, communal, cubicles and one for women and their children: the female showering area is comunal but there is one private one for disabled people, presumably the male one is the same. SO plenty of options according to sex and no apparent problems. Would the trans accept these... yes I know the question is actually about much more.

OP posts:
Blibbyblobby · 01/02/2021 14:46

Third spaces do not exist.

No but they can be campaigned for but you've said you wouldn't do that.

No, but you're free to do so if you wish. I definitely wouldn't have anything to say if you did.

Great isn't it.

Neighbour: I like your house better than mine. It's much more me. If I don't get to live in your house I will be deeply distressed. I need your house for my mental wellbeing. It's ok, I don't mind sharing with you.

Me: But I also need my house. I put a lot of work into it and I need it too. Also, you are a friend and a good neighbour but once you live here the rest of your family are going to visit too and some of them are not so nice.

Neighbour: yeah, that sucks but it's not my problem. I solved my problem by taking your house. If it's a big problem for you, you are welcome to try and find me a different house and I'll consider whether I will accept it instead of yours. I won't help you look though, because I don't have a problem staying in your house. It's your problem that you aren't ok with that.

Winesalot · 01/02/2021 14:48

Helen Staniland spent half her life demanding trans people answer questions about penises on social media, it's unsuprising that some people took the piss out of her for it.

I read her feed jj, she asked the question and may have pressed for an answer. She also asked men and other women the same question.

There was absolutely NO need to take 'the piss out her for it' as you state except if you hate women. There was absolutely NO need for any person to call her 'penis women' or to sexually harass her. Quite enlightening that you avoid the fact that someone you linked us to did this and took a great deal of pleasure in doing it.

334bu · 01/02/2021 14:51

Again with the case by case !!!! Case by case does not mean individual by individual. ! Communal showers for females are not open to males because that would put women in danger. Transwomen are male therefore not allowed. Doesn't matter that Jane is really nice and wouldn't hurt a fly , the mere fact of their male sex excludes them.