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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)

999 replies

Langrycleg · 01/02/2021 10:56

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
gardenbird48 · 03/02/2021 13:13

The I don’t see Fasteds posts as a detail - she has been responding to quite a lot of questions and personally I appreciate it when people do explain more detail on day to day life with a trans person as it is helpful. Normally asking reasonable questions elsewhere results in getting yelled at and told off for being a transphobe (despite the fact we are always being told to speak to trans people to educate ourselves). So I appreciate the time given to this.

334bu · 03/02/2021 13:16

What about your other daughter?

46 year old male taking away her gold medal
Male police officer taking details if she were to be sexually assaulted

Where are her boundaries? Does she not count? Do no other girls count?

Fastedbrownie · 03/02/2021 13:22

@gardenbird48

Bye Fasted I do admire your obvious loyalty and commitment to raising a step child who has obviously got complex emotional issues. It can be easy for a child with more challenges than the others to take precedence over them and I’m sure you work very hard to balance things. It does sound like they are still inadvertently experiencing a lot of male socialisation through their special and unusual status in many peoples lives.

Do you have any in depth chats with your girls on their relationship with sc?

There's a decent age gap between sd and my other children. My oldest just turned 16 yesterday, my youngest daughter turns 5 in a few weeks. I'm very fortunate to be in a position that whatever my child want/need, I can typically get them, so nobody is going without. My oldest wanted to go to a specialist training school abroad for his sport, we were able to sort that out for him. My youngest son has selective mutism, we do as much advocating for him as I did for sd. Dd1 shows horses, I spend at least one full weekend a month driving her to Timbuktu and back for that. Nobody is missing out on having their needs and wants met in this family.

To my dd's sd is just there sister. Obviously at a later date there will need to be some discussion with dd2 to explain transgenderism properly and explain that sd isn't biologically her sister as she wasn't born of mummy and daddy, but that's about the extent of it.

YouSetTheTone · 03/02/2021 13:26

'If there is, I'm not any of those other girl's mother. It's not my responsibility to advocate for them if they have an issue sharing toilets with transgirls, it's for them and their parents to speak to the school to try and sort something out, exactly in the same way it was mine and sd's responsibility to sort it out for her.'

@Fastedbrownie I think the point that a lot of people are making is that legislation is making it increasingly hard for the other girls' parents to advocate for them. Or to advocate for themselves. Or even to ask questions like the one on SM. It seems like it's very easy for you to advocate for your SC but not for any girls or women to do the same. How is this fair? Why is your SC's needs more important than others? Can you answer that question?

To pick up again the point about teaching girls and women that they should override their feelings of discomfort at being in a single sex space with a member of the opposite sex - it's wrong on so many levels. We are biologically wired to be aware of a male stranger because they are stronger and more capable of harm. Being told to quash feelings of NATURAL discomfort and to constantly override them is harmful and confusing to women/ girls. WHY isn't it men who are being asked to address the issue? WHY is it only women who have to adapt and accommodate as always? And WHY are transwomen and their advocates so unbelievably uncaring about women and their needs? I find it very odd that people who seem to want to be women also seem to hate them so much.

gardenbird48 · 03/02/2021 13:26

Just a heads up - we’re being watched on Twitter again.

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)
YouSetTheTone · 03/02/2021 13:32

'To my dd's sd is just there sister. Obviously at a later date there will need to be some discussion with dd2 to explain transgenderism properly and explain that sd isn't biologically her sister as she wasn't born of mummy and daddy, but that's about the extent of it.'

@Fastedbrownie. Could you explain the above? Being transgender and being adopted are two different things.

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2021 13:33

This was not a 'big feelings' situation. You don't need to be concerned about your child mutilating their own genitals, or attempting to drown themself in the bath, or refusing to eat for days at a time because you said no to ice-cream.

I am not being literal about the ice-cream, obviously. The underlying principle remains the same. A child makes an impossible demand because they want someone to say 'no'. I am very sorry your child seems to have some complex issues going on. I do not think affirming everything to avoid them having a meltdown is a healthy or helpful way to support them.

OnlyTheLangoftheTitBerg · 03/02/2021 13:33

IWillSqueakAgain that’s an incredibly powerful and insightful post, and sums up why we can’t assume “no dissent” from girls is meaningful, considered, appropriately risk-assessed assent.

Quaagars · 03/02/2021 13:34

Somebody on Twitter posts about a thread on here?
So?
I swear sometimes people think it's a private little space on here, it's open to all and there'll be lots of people on here with different views and takes on things.
Even MN themselves tweets threads, and MN Madness is a pretty funny piss take account where people lift threads from here to comment on.

Langrycleg · 03/02/2021 13:41

I asked Fasted a while back where she was able to meet all those other parents and trans kids10-15 years ago .as far as I remember kids were not being transed as frequently as they are . So who did you approach for support? I think it was all about the older males in those days. Incidentally has your sc had any surgery? Did you maybe just a bit want to be fully accepted by a member of your family you did not give birth to. Lots of issues maybe not addressed by the total affirmation approach though. Not disrespecting you as you have come here to tell us your experiences, but surely by now you can see the disrespect for girls and women?

OP posts:
Fastedbrownie · 03/02/2021 13:43

@YouSetTheTone

'To my dd's sd is just there sister. Obviously at a later date there will need to be some discussion with dd2 to explain transgenderism properly and explain that sd isn't biologically her sister as she wasn't born of mummy and daddy, but that's about the extent of it.'

@Fastedbrownie. Could you explain the above? Being transgender and being adopted are two different things.

She's not adopted. She's my first husband's child. They had her very young and biomother couldn't cope so developed a severe dependency on alcohol. I married her father when she was almost 4, raised as my own, then my first husband died when she was 11. I've had full parental rights ever since and raised alone with my own two oldest children until I remarried. Biomum is supposedly sober now, but sd hasn't wanted much to do with her since she was 16-ish, so that's dead in the water.
Langrycleg · 03/02/2021 13:45

Ps my child ,now middle aged ,had pretty severe issues. At some point I had to say no and her emotional melt downs no longer worked. Much happier in many ways and our relationship has survived to live another day.

OP posts:
Datun · 03/02/2021 13:45

@IWillSqueakAgain

At risk of being a bit me me me ( on a subject all about MY rights and the rights of all females no less!) I was thinking in hindsight I likely would have been fine with a tg in the girls toilets as a teen.

I was always the girl who wanted to include any outsider. I was always happy to hang out with my gay male friends doing make up or swapping clothes and so on (same for lesbian friends too, but that’s not relevant to males in female spaces). I always loved that the velvet underground sang so evocatively about the transwomen and transvestites (as they termed themselves then- Lou was one so he gets to use the term and I’ll respect his experience of that when referring to the people he was writing about). I always thought Nicky Wire in a skirt on stage was awesome.

As a teen my impulse would to have been thrilled to include trans girls in girlhood, and I would have assumed that extended to all areas of single sex spaces.

But I was also a survivor of repeated csa. And I had numerous problems from my female biology that made me deeply uncomfortable in my own skin at that age, as I grew up knowing women were shamed for women’s bodies.

As a teenager I wouldn’t have been able to tie together that male bodied people in female spaces would make me feel more unsafe and degrade my privacy and dignity even more than it had been. I would have been the first to think that men who want to assault me will follow me in anyways, self id won’t make any difference. As a teen I wouldn’t have been able to see the link with further eroding my safety by making girl = the boys who say they are too.

The reality is I would have very quickly and very damagingly woken up to this when faced with the boys who were stalking me sharing toilets with me, or being unable to opt out of pe because of extremely heavy flooding (as in I had several bts as a teen because of this, even after meds etc) by saying it was women’s troubles-because that would be exclusionary to tgs. I would have had no concept that it wasn’t bigoted to say no thanks to a tm male vagina or to a tg female penis (because despite my abuse I’m still stuck being straight). I wouldn’t have been able to recognise my boundaries were further being violated and eroded because I had such a poor concept of them in the first place.

I would have been that girl fawning around your sd saying she’s fabulous. Yet I would have been one of the most severely at risk by her being included in female spaces/language.

This is precisely why we have safe guarding rules. Children are not capable of deciding what’s safe for them and what’s not. I also thought the adult male boyfriend who I was consenting to have sex with loved me, and that this wasn’t abusive because I didn’t experience it as the same csa I grew up with. But in hindsight I was a child well under the age of consent and he was an adult a few years over it. Just because I thought it was normal and good and I was ok with it didn’t mean that was the case, it just took me a lot longer to recognise that due to the trauma I grew up with.

That’s why adults need to put safeguarding first. That’s why any claim of ‘the girls are all totally good with it’ is bs. Children are not capable of saying what’s safe for them and what’s not. Adults need to do that and adults must err on the side of caution always, because in hindsight tgs in female spaces would have further traumatised me in a way I wouldn’t have been able to indentify at those ages. The same way my being vulnerable to further grooming and abuse by men was a result of my csa, my being ok with tgs in girls spaces would have been a result of how traumatised I was then. It certainly isn’t something that points towards how ok these girls are with this by a long shot.

💐

And yes, exactly. Which is why we don't allow teenage girls to determine girls' safeguarding. Or trans girls.

Apart from male individuals who demand entry to female spaces being enough to preclude them, the idea that transgirls are all sweet, effeminate, harmless youngsters is misleading. Some may be, or many may be, but that's not how safeguarding works.

This is Lila Perry. If l recall correctly, during (and after), one of the first reported conflicts over female spaces in a school.

Lila said:

"There’s a lot of ignorance. They are claiming that they’re uncomfortable. I don’t believe for a second that they are. I think this is pure and simple bigotry.”

That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)
That women should not be banned from Social Media for asking the question ( Thread 4)
ErrolTheDragon · 03/02/2021 13:48

@Quaagars

Somebody on Twitter posts about a thread on here? So? I swear sometimes people think it's a private little space on here, it's open to all and there'll be lots of people on here with different views and takes on things. Even MN themselves tweets threads, and MN Madness is a pretty funny piss take account where people lift threads from here to comment on.
So, witterings by that particular person are usually notable only for their wry amusement value, she hardly covers herself in glory with misogynistic slurs. (For those who are unfamiliar with that twitter handle, they're from a person best known for unsuccessfully taking a transwoman to court for alleged transphobia)
ErrolTheDragon · 03/02/2021 13:49

And for tangential relevance to this thread, I'd hate her to be banned from SM!Grin

jj1968 · 03/02/2021 13:51

@CharlieParley

Because you are not the tsar of women. You don't get to speak on behalf of us all.

Consent is not transferable. You cannot consent to males in female-only spaces on my behalf. I don't consent. When the issue is about the boundaries we set and assert around our own bodies, and who gets to be in the same space as us when we are undressed and vulnerable, we are talking about consent. And that is not something you can do for me. My boundaries are not yours to give away.

When segregation was finally brought to an end in the US many white women didn't consent to people of colour sharing their spaces. It wouldn't surprise if some of them would even have preferred to share spaces with a white man rather than a woman of colour. Given some of the extremists in far right movements today who are women it wouldn't shock me if some still had the same attitude today. When gay and lesbian people began to feel more confident coming out many straight people didn't consent to them in their spaces - there was considerably hostility in the right wing press for example much of which is still on public record. Some people might not consent to people with certain MH conditions of physical disabilities in their spaces because it makes them uncomfortable. Some women might not consent to trans men or intersex women in women's spaces. Some women might prefer segregation based on gender and would rather share a toilet with someone who looks like Paris Lees than Buck Angel. What if some women don't consent to sharing a space with a butch lesbian because they can't tell whether she's a man or a woman?

Many people in prison didn't consent to be there. People sectioned who have committed no crime often don't consent to being detained. If you are suspected of carrying drugs you can be forcibly strip searched, and cavity searched, without your consent and little more than an okay off you go if you are found innocent. I don't consent to the police having powers to kick down someone's door, tear their home apart and drag them off to jail just because they might be growing a few pot plants or something. I don't consent to refugee being locked in camps, and neither do they. And yet it happens.

And what of the men? What if men don't consent to trans women in their space? What if men don't consent to women in their workplace? Many men didn't, some probably would still object given half a chance. All of these feelings are every bit as sincere as your refusal to consent to toilets being based on anything other than genitals at birth - something I think many people would take as a somewhat extreme position.

All of the above situations, good and bad, were introduced by the democratic process. So tough shit if you don't consent to women in your workplace, or flying a plane, or being stopped and searched, democracy (somewhat failed democracy I would argue) has decided otherwise. It srikes me as somewhat entitled to claim that if just one woman doesn't consent to a trans women in the toilet then that is enough. That's just not how society works and especially in this case as it is not a personal violation. No-one is expecting you to share a cubical with anyone. No-one is expecting you to touch anyone. Most people when asked don't really care about toilets at least and I'm sure at least one woman on this thread doesn't consent to being forced to place her trans child at risk by being compelled to make them use male spaces. So why does your lack of consent count when all the other instances when people haven't consented don't? Why should the normal democratic process, which supports trans inclusion to at least some degree in almost all comparable countries to the UK, be overridden on this one case just because you don't like it? How is that democracy?

Fastedbrownie · 03/02/2021 13:53

@Langrycleg

I asked Fasted a while back where she was able to meet all those other parents and trans kids10-15 years ago .as far as I remember kids were not being transed as frequently as they are . So who did you approach for support? I think it was all about the older males in those days. Incidentally has your sc had any surgery? Did you maybe just a bit want to be fully accepted by a member of your family you did not give birth to. Lots of issues maybe not addressed by the total affirmation approach though. Not disrespecting you as you have come here to tell us your experiences, but surely by now you can see the disrespect for girls and women?
The way every parent of sick children meet other parents of sick children - at the hospital and through support groups set up by hospital. Should mention because I don't think I have, we didn't socially transition at 4/5. The body focused GD has been there from 3-ish, but it wasn't until 10-12 that we started to slowly move onto more socially transitioned practices. It wasn't overly difficult in our case because sd still goes by birth name.

No surgery. Have had no need for any. Has natural breasts, face is feminine because never had enough testosterone. No talks of reassignment surgery because, well, neovaginas are a big commitment, care wise with all the dialation and hygiene requirements.

334bu · 03/02/2021 13:53

I am sure you are doing everything in your power to help your children achieve their dreams. However, advocating for your son does not remove the rights to safety , privacy and dignity of other people . Advocating for him does not place adult males in communal showers with teenage girls. Helping your daughter's equestrian ambitions does not impact other girls chances to achieve sporting success. Advocating for her does not put 46 year old males on top of the podium, depriving 19 year old females of their gold medal.

Datun · 03/02/2021 13:55

So why does your lack of consent count when all the other instances when people haven't consented don't?

Why are 98% of all sex crimes committed by men and not women?

Paragraph after paragraph of why women can't have boundaries.

The answer is still no, jj.

Quaagars · 03/02/2021 14:00

Apart from male individuals who demand entry to female spaces being enough to preclude them, the idea that transgirls are all sweet, effeminate, harmless youngsters is misleading
Apart from male individuals who demand entry to female spaces being enough to preclude them, the idea that transgirls are all sweet, effeminate, harmless youngsters is misleading. Some may be, or many may be, but that's not how safeguarding works*

This is Lila Perry. If l recall correctly, during (and after), one of the first reported conflicts over female spaces in a school

What has this person supposed to have done, is there some context or is just looks you're focusing on for you to conflate the two with your first highlighted sentence? the idea that transgirls are all sweet, effeminate, harmless youngsters is misleading
Apologies if not.
This, this is what people are saying that as it just looks like pure bigotry if it is based purely on looks and being trans and nothing else (as I said apologies if it just is that you have missed out context and there was something else)

Quaagars · 03/02/2021 14:01

Don't know why that has quoted twice Blush

334bu · 03/02/2021 14:01

jj2968

As all evidence shows that transwomen are just as likely to harm women as any other members of the male sex you can't expect women to open the door and let them in. Women are not expected in our democratic society to submit to strip searches by males, to being examined intimately by a male without a female chaperone, to share communal showers with males, to share locked cells with males etc. So why should they be expected to do this just because the male in question says they are a woman.

OldCrone · 03/02/2021 14:04

Many people in prison didn't consent to be there.

But it's reasonable to expect to be imprisoned with people of your own sex.

People sectioned who have committed no crime often don't consent to being detained.

But it's reasonable to expect to be detained in a facility with people of your own sex.

If you are suspected of carrying drugs you can be forcibly strip searched, and cavity searched, without your consent and little more than an okay off you go if you are found innocent.

But it's reasonable to expect to be searched by someone of your own sex.

Do you truly believe that there is no reason for anything at all ever to be based on sex? Do you really believe that the differences between the sexes are so trivial to never need different spaces or provision of different services or different sporting categories?

IWillSqueakAgain · 03/02/2021 14:05

Jj stop using such false equivalency examples.

Women are the oppressed class, men are the privileged one. Women saying no to men in womanhood isn’t the equivalent of white women (because white men are never racist huh? Showing your misogyny there jj) being uncomfortable with black women in their space. Males redefining the word woman and all that it affects is the same as white people saying white lives matter in respect to blm groups or white people going out for scholarships reserved for poc or Rachel Dozal expecting us to accept she is black when she’s not.

Women are the vulnerable marginalised group, we are the equivalent of the people with disabilities or the poc in all your examples. Males are the ones with all the privilege and power. Stop colonising womanhood and women’s rights. The fact you whinge about being told not to violate our boundaries says everything about your position.

Fastedbrownie · 03/02/2021 14:06

@ArabellaScott

This was not a 'big feelings' situation. You don't need to be concerned about your child mutilating their own genitals, or attempting to drown themself in the bath, or refusing to eat for days at a time because you said no to ice-cream.

I am not being literal about the ice-cream, obviously. The underlying principle remains the same. A child makes an impossible demand because they want someone to say 'no'. I am very sorry your child seems to have some complex issues going on. I do not think affirming everything to avoid them having a meltdown is a healthy or helpful way to support them.

It wasn't something done spur of the moment because I couldn't be bothered taking her phone away that day, it was a descion made after literally years of consultations with endocrinologists, psychologists, psychiatrists, gender specialists etc.
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